Main

We Are Not of the Night, Nor of Darkness. (1 Th 5:5)

Finally, we have these Sabbatarians, in desperation, resorting to the names of old radio stations to justify their actions!...

"There was an old radio show with a famous saying, "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Only the Shadow knows!""

Clearly, some of us are talking about searching the scriptures, and some of us are not.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

You may have the shadow all you want. I'll take the body of Christ! They are not one and the same.

Tom, Once again you have erred both in your false accusations against "xxxxx" and in your philosophy regarding the meaning of your pet scriptures.

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

"This seems to be the scripture you use most heavily to attempt to tell us that God's Holy Torah is DONE AWAY. You quote it a lot and twist it to derive a meaning that is not in the text. Paul plainly says the "GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY." He is talking about the light that shone forth from Moses' face when he came down from receiving God's Holy Torah on Mt. Sinai. Furthermore, Paul is not saying that the glory of the First is gone, rather he is saying that the glory of the New (Spirit) outshines the glory of the First (written letter only)."

If you will notice, in your King James Version, the word "glory" you spoke of is in italics, and is not in the Greek, thereby immediately refuting this whole point of yours!

The way I presented it without the word, which is as it is also missing from the Greek, is how it should read. The subject matter of the passage speaks for itself...

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Here is the way it appears in the Greek interlinear...

2 Cor 3:3 Being manifested that ye are epistle Christ's ministered by us; having been inscribed not with ink, but with the Spirit of God the living; not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of the heart fleshy. 4 Confidence and such have we through the Christ towards God: 5 not that competent we are from ourselves to reckon anything as of ourselves, but our competency is of God; 6 who also made competent us as servants of a new covenant; not of letter, but of Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit quickens. 7 But if the service of death in letters, having been engraven in stones, was produced with glory, so as not to be able to look intently the children of Israel into the face of Moses, on account of the glory of his face, which is being annulled; 8 how not rather the service of the Spirit shall be in glory? 9 For if the service of condemnation be glory, much rather abounds the service of righteousness in glory. 10 For even neither has been made glorious that which has been made glorious in this respect, on account of the surpassing glory. 11 For if that which is being annuled was through glory, much rather that which remains is in glory.

The subject here, for those who have ears to hear, is that service which is being annulled, compared with that service which remains.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Once again, it is not I that has laid aside the commandments of God to hold the traditions of men.

"Paul is not saying that the glory of the First is gone"

You're right here, that is not what Paul said at all. Paul was talking about the service, the "ministration" which was being annulled, not just the glory.

"rather he is saying that the glory of the New (Spirit) outshines the glory of the First (written letter only)."

This, "xxxxx", is pure private interpretation which, as usual, you always prove yourself to be very generous with.

"You add to the text to when you say God's Holy Torah has been DONE AWAY. You contradict Yehoshua (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) in MATT 5:17-20 when you try to use 2COR 3:7-11 to say God's Holy Torah has been DONE AWAY."

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I am afraid you simply don't, or refuse to, understand what it means that love fulfills the whole law in one word...

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them.

1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. 25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: 26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. 27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. 28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that showed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: 29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? 30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? 31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

"NOW, ABOUT THE SHADOW... I complement you on your eloquent demonstration of the Old Covenant's foreshadowing of the New Covenant. We "xxxxx" are in complete agreement with you on this scripture-based fact."

Thanks for the compliment.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices:wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and SHADOWof heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Hosea 10:1 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used SIMILITUDES, by the ministry of the prophets.

"Tom, these are the only passages in the Bible which make mention of the Old Covenant as being the SHADOW of the New Covenant. In none of these passages does it state that the SHADOW is no longer applicable."

You are misunderstanding me if you think I ever said the shadow is no longer applicable. The shadow is applicable- but only as a shadow- not as a part of the body. Like I said to "xxxxx",

"How many times have you watched your shadow on the ground? Is it you? It is NOT! It is merely your outline! So why would any want to become the shadow, when they are called to be the body? The shadow is NOT the body, and the body is NOT the shadow! Or else go outside on a sunny day, and lay down on the ground, and see if you can become "at-one-ment" with your shadow! See if your body can become two dimensional rather than three dimensional. The allegory simply does not fit! You will, I guarantee you, look just as absurd, as those who attempt to keep the law (the shadow), and yet be members of the New Testament body (what the shadow doesn't know!!

And yes, you are going to have to choose which substance you are- shadow or reality!

Gal 4:30 ...what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son:for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."

It very clear says the old covenant was a shadow, and a pattern, and not the very image of the things. If you are going to use these analogies correctly, this new testament must be of some substance so completely different than the shadow, and the pattern, that only the outline is comparable- and one is not the other.

Your usage of the allegories simply destroys the usage as scripture applies them.

"If you will read Hebrews chapters 7 - 11 again, you'll see that instead of saying the SHADOW is no longer applicable, the author is actually showing how the SHADOW is STILL applicable."

I have read Hebrews many, many times. And I see it for just what it says- that the old covenant was a pattern, that was done away, there coming in a better covenant built on better promises.

"According to Hebrews, there is still a Priesthood under the New Covenant; Yehoshua Ha Mashiah, after the order of Melchezidek. There is still sacrifice under the New Covenant; Yehoshua's life and death. There is still a temple under the New Covenant; first Yehoshua's body, then our bodies. AND, in addition, under the New Covenant there is the indwelling Holy Spirit of God to help us walk in the REMAINING written Holy Torah of God."

So, you see, we "xxxxx", in accordance with the scriptures, differ with you over whether any of the SHADOW is applicable under the New Covenant as laid down in the Old Covenant.

And I compliment you for recognizing the "patterns" for what they are. Why then can't you seem to discern where the pattern leaves off, and the substance begins? Why do you wish to mix the two, as if they even could be mixed? You can't mix shadow and substance. You can't be one substance and the other at the same time. They agree as to outline, and pattern, and are therefore helpful to understand each other, but they do not agree as to substance, or practice.

Now, I'd like to ask you, where in the New Testament does it say this...

"walk in the REMAINING written Holy Torah of God."???

Where does the New Testament specifically distinguish between what has passed, and what remains?

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

"That this is so, can be seen in what we call baptism. Under the Old Covenant, this took place frequently, and the ashes of the Red Heifer were applied. Under the New Covenant, this takes place once (when done correctly), and the name of Yehoshua is applied. BUT WE STILL PERFORM THIS SHADOW -- LITERALLY! "

We do not wash our hands and feet in a brazen laver. This also was simply another "for ever" statute that has merely foreshadowed the actual washing in the name of Jesus Christ, as the scripture says, for remission of sins.

Exo 30:18 Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein. 19 For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat: 20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD: 21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

Where is the scripture that did away with this "for ever" statute?

The same one's I've been quoting you.

2 Cor. 3:7, the whole book of Galatians, Heb. 7:12, 8:5-9:9, 10:1-16, etc. etc.

"This is further upheld by our partaking in literal bread and "fruit of the vine" for Passover (i.e. communion). Or perhaps you don't obey Christ's instructions regarding "as oft as ye do this, do this in remembrance of me." You showed us beautifully how the literal bread and the literal wine foreSHADOW the "living by (or through)" Yehoshua('s life's example) with sincerity and truth. But since you see literal bread and literal wine as the SHADOW, am I right in understanding that you mean we no longer consume literal bread or literal wine in remembrance of Yehoshua's sacrifice? Do you really mean you don't partake in the physical ritual of communion as outlined in the Bible? Or is this the only instance where the SHADOW is still to be performed?"

Eating the bread and the wine in "remembrance" of Christ is not the observance of Passover, but of communion. They are not the same.

First, look at some key words. Even the one's you brought out-

1 Cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

There is absolutely nothing in the words of Christ nor of Paul, that specifically state, or otherwise unequivocally imply that this "service" is to be practiced yearly or at any specific sabbath day.

Rather, quite to the contrary, Paul does tell us specifically not to observe days...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. 19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman (old testament) and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Now, back to the Lord's supper. Not the Old Testament Passover, but the New Testament "Lord's Supper"

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

1 Cor 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup...31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Here is the key to the whole ordinance of the Lord's supper- "if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged..."

Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. 10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

1 Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Jesus didn't say "do this in obedience of the sabbath" Jesus said...

1 Cor 11:24 ...this do in remembrance of me. 25 as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

1 Cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

The Lord's Supper is not a "holyday."

The Lord's Supper is not a "meal"...

33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

There is NO commandment in the New Testament to keep the Old Testamant Passover. There is specific commandment not to keep it as a law...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility...

"In this vein, you claimed it is no longer necessary to literally observe Passover since as you quoted, "Christ is our passover.""

How is it that you understand that the priesthood is totally changed, being replaced by a completely new one, and that the scriptural ordinances of washings in the brazen laver have been replaced, but somehow the ordinance of Passover has not, but has been somehow merged and integrated?

Do we observe both the carnal priesthood, and the spiritual? Do we observe the carnal washings, and baptism?

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

We do not!

May God Bless!