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Part two, called: salvation by grace THROUGH, NOT BEFORE (and therefore without) faith! Why did you quote James 1:15? Commentary, please. Jam 1:15 "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, WHEN IT IS FINISHED, bringeth forth death." Which comes first, sin, or death? In your theology, death comes before sin. In God's word, sin comes before death upon every individual. Ezekiel 18:20 "THE ***SOUL*** THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE". This is already getting long. Pardon me if I just hit the highlights from here on out. If I pass up something you think I shouldn't have, please let me know. There are really only three other major points that I'd like to bring to your attention. First, the statements of yours that I have passed up were mostly your interpretations without any scriptural support. We already agree that you read things differently in the Bible than I do. Secondly, you said: "(and yes, I read your unquoted verses, something you won't do for me)." I wrote to you on 2/29 or thereabouts, in a response to your post titled "Where's the Thread" that: "I can hardly even believe that after all I've said just about the evils (the fruits) that have been born by the Trinitarian churches (since the inception of the Trinity doctrine into the church by pagan philosophers) you still feel any desire at all to defend it. So go ahead, if you must. I'LL READ WHATEVER YOU FEEL IS SIGNIFICANT." Since I said that I have read everything you've provided me. Maybe you overlooked that, I thought I had made it clearer than I had back than. But I see now how it may have gotten overlooked. Especially if you happened to not be reading that closely. I also have apologized to you about the statements about your handle because they came across in a way I did not at all expect. (I even titled that post, in reference to the above, "I will listen to you, Pilgrim...") Which apology you accepted, and in the very next breath continued the subject to keep it alive. Then, you posted another gem, in which you said: "And if you did take the name "Watchman",...You could be mistaken for a fictitious pseudo-character" Surely you know that when God forgives men, He also forgets about it. How come it's so hard for you to forgive and forget? Is this how you show the love and mercy of your god? Pilgrim, surely you've read this: Mat 6:14 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Eph 4:32 "...forgiving one another, even AS God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." And now we get to the really big one. <<"This is where your R.C. Sproul (and 'Reformed theology') is TOTALLY confused, and completely backwards truth. He says - 'A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: "regeneration precedes faith."... We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again in order that we may believe.' What Bible is he reading THIS out of, pray tell?">> TomR "I must now ask you, what Bible are you reading out of, pray tell? Please read Ephesians 2:1-9, "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. BUT GOD, WHO IS RICH IN MERCY, BECAUSE OF HIS GREAT LOVE WITH WHICH HE LOVED US, EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN TRESPASSES, MADE US ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (BY HIS GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED), AND RAISED US UP TOGETHER, AND MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His GRACE in His kindness toward us in Christ. FOR BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST."- Pilgrim "Please tell me TomR, what you think those verses are saying. To me they spell out man's total salvation and eternity soley by God's grace alone. God does the work, not man. Now to your verses:" -Pilgrim Notice please, Pilgrim, that I did NOT say that we were not quickened while we are dead, that's why I quoted 1 Cor. 15:35-36. Apparently you missed the word **ALSO** in the passage- 1Co 15:35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 THOU FOOL, THAT WHICH THOU SOWEST **IS NOT QUICKENED, EXCEPT IT DIE**: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body... 42 SO **ALSO** IS THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD..." Pilgrim, what I was contending was "the maxim: regeneration precedes faith... We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again in order that we may believe." To which you have now added, that to you "they spell out man's total salvation and eternity solely by God's grace alone." Pilgrim, if you get saved BEFORE you have faith (as in "regeneration precedes faith") How are you saved "by grace THROUGH faith"? PILGRIM, YOU ARE PREACHING **SALVATION BEFORE FAITH** and therefore salvation WITHOUT faith, *NOT* BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED *THROUGH* FAITH!!!! Oh you poor blind soul! But that is exactly what happens when the blind lead the blind. They both fall into a ditch! I do so pray that God might open your eyes to what you have said, and what Calvinism is saying in this. Even the actions of the Ephesians clearly contradict the position you've been taught by your Pharisee/Philosopher fathers- Act 19:1 "...Paul... came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST *SINCE* YE BELIEVED? (Paul asks this obviously KNOWING that the Spirit comes after, not upon belief!) And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, THE HOLY GHOST CAME on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. It even explained the sequence to you in the book of Ephesians. But you chose to pass it by, opting for the doctrines of known murderers: Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that YE HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," True to the salvation plan of Acts 2:38, they had repented (died out to self), been baptized in Jesus name for the remission of sins (since we are buried with Him into death, there they were- dead) and then they received the Holy Ghost. Just exactly opposite, or backwards, of the way your philosophers have taught you. Even Romans 10 relates this same order, speaking of it in reverse: Rom 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel." You see- first it was preached. Second they heard. Third they believed. Fourth they called on Him, believing. Because the scripture SPECIFICALLY SAYS YOU CAN'T RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT UNTIL YOU ASK FOR IT: Luk 11:13 "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THEM THAT ASK HIM?" But according to your doctrine, one receives the Holy spirit even while you are in the world, again, totally contrary to the word of God: Joh 14:17 "Even THE SPIRIT of truth; whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Now I'd like to refer you to chapter six of the Bible study you love to tear down: Question # 6.1 - Does the Bible teach that all those who believe in Christ have already received the Holy Ghost? Or, contrary to what (Pilgrim) says, does the Bible specifically teach BELIEVERS TO SEEK THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST? " If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone?...If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?" -Luke 11:9-13. "...He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also...And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do...If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do...If ye love me, keep my commandments. and I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter... Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him..." -John 14:12-17. "But this spake He of the Spirit, which THEY THAT BELIEVE ON HIM **SHOULD** RECEIVE..." -John 7:39. "...But wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith He, ye have heard of me, For... ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence" -Acts 1:4-5. "...The Holy Ghost... God hath given TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM... -Acts 5:32. "...Unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans...thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire (...He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire...Matt.3:11), that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment (...Arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Rev.19:8, ..The Spirit is life because of righteousness... Rom.8:10), that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear... I stand at the door and knock: If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him (I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you... the Comforter...is the Holy Ghost...in my name...John 14:18,26), and will sup with him, and he with me" -Revelation 3:14-20. "...Seek ye first the kingdom of God..." Matt. 6:33. ("For the kingdom of God is...righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" -Romans 14:17. "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest (With stammering lips and another tongue...He said, this is the rest...Is.28:11-12), lest any man fall...of unbelief... For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling (...seek the Lord...feel after Him, and find Him...Acts 17:27)... Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" -Heb. 4:11-16. "...Unto the church of the Thessalonians...knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance..." -1 Thess. 1:1,4-5. "...Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them... When THEY BELIEVED... concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, THEY WERE BAPTIZED... Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as YET HE WAS FALLEN UPON NONE of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost" -Acts 8:5-17. In Jesus' name! |