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Pilgrim, I really didn't expect this to get so long. sorry... I am really very busy these days. I am sorry that it has taken me so long to give you a response. I pray with all my heart that God may open your eyes to the truth. If God does not open your eyes with this post, then I am afraid that I am going to have to serioously, prayerfully consider terminating our discussions. There just comes a time to wipe the dust off of one's feet and move on. Tit 3:10 "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." Luk 9:5 "And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them." These scriptures apply just as much for either of us, either way. If I remain a heretic in your eyes, it is time for you to move on. For you have given me no desire to worship or perceive of God in the manners which you have described Him. BTW- I have ordered the book that you have referenced. It costs $19.99 from Amazon Books. Now, let's get to your statements... ----- "...You are missing the big picture here. I would like to quote J.I. Packer (from Tabletalk magazine, Oct '95),..." The only thing this does is pull off the blame from Calvin's head." Please read a couple of the quotes I posted again. I never said that Calvin was directly responsible, and actually lit the fire under Servetus, or anything like that. The quotes you made have not diminished the things I quoted. Actually, the death of Servetus was a shame to the whole city of Geneva, over whom Calvin has been said to have been to them like a pope. Here is another site that expunges the validity of Calvinism: http://www.hhs.net/evangout/ashes.htm Please read it. I'll leave a link. We have other individuals in history who have acted similarly to Calvin's involvement in having another murdered for religious reasons. Individuals who wouldn't bring themselves to actually murder anyone, because it wasn't the morally correct thing for them to do. Yet they were far from guiltless. You tell me, really, how much different they acted than Calvin, for having Servetus arrested by a civil government who was sure to pronounce the death penalty: Joh 18:3 "Judas then, having received a band of men and officers _from the chief priests and Pharisees_, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons... 12 Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,... 28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. 29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man? 30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee. 31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:" Caiaphas himself didn't arrest Jesus. He didn't try Jesus. Didn't convict Jesus. In fact, Caiaphas claimed, it was not right for him to put a man to death. He just turned him over to "the authorities" and then claimed himself innocent. How much different, REALLY, was Caiaphas' involvement with Christ's death, than Calvin's was with Servetus'? At least in Caiaphas' case the actual murderers weren't members of his own congregation. At least Caiaphas himself didn't notify the authorities and point out Jesus HIMSELF, after Jesus had visited his church, like Calvin did. Do you think Caiaphas was innocent of Christ's death? Would you accept an interpretation of the scriptures based on the insight of a man like Caiaphas? Then why would you from Calvin? To me, Pilgrim, you are but the son, of a son, of a Pharisee, who also refuses that to consider that you might Rom 10:2 "...have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." . "I'm glad that you bought R.C.'s book, "Chosen By God". It's a great book." Excuse me for my bluntness, but in my humble opinion, it's a piece of garbage that makes the commandments of God of none effect through the traditions of men. "And once again you label and dismiss - You keep on quoting Mark 12:29 as if it proves some point against me. Stop it! I agree fully with this verse. "The Lord our God is one Lord". This is my belief. I never said it wasn't. This verse in no way disproves the Trinity." Mark 12:29 does not say "The Trinity our God is one Trinity." It does not say "The Lord our Trinity is one Lord." It does not say "the Lord our three persons are one Lord," yet from your words, this is what you appear to imply the first commandment says. The FIRST commandment says "the Lord our God is one Lord." Since 1 Cor. 8:6 says there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus, that means that Mark 12:29 can only be interpreted to mean that: The (one) Lord our (one) God (the Father) is one Lord (Jesus Christ). Is that what you believe about the first commandment? Need I remind you that you have admitted, and adamantly defend, a plurality of gods!... " Also as you like to point out, the Shema - Deut. 6:4, "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one!" The words "our God" are plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean "our Gods"... Joshua 24:19, "You cannot serve the Lord, for He is a holy God..." [Literally - holy Gods]. -Pilgrim, in Who is this who darkens counsel..., 1/19/96. You no more believe in the absolute Monotheistic one God (revealed to Israel as Jehovah, and in the New Testament as Jesus) than Mormons do. You have a family of persons being one god, Mormons have a family of persons being one god. I can see no difference. Except that at least Trinitarians limit themselves to three. But One is the commandment, not three. Any way, you don't believe me, I don't believe you. I don't believe you because your god sent someone else to die, mine came and died for me Himself. I don't believe you because those who introduced the doctrine into the church were philosophers and murderers, and mine never were. The fruits of the history of your church, associated with, and known by the Trinity doctrine, do not bear the righteousness of God. You don't believe me because I don't follow the traditions that were laid down by men at some Westminster council. Well Jesus commanded us not to lay aside the commandments for the traditions of men, for they make the commandments of God of none effect, but you choose to do it anyway. Fine. Time to drop it.. The Lord is the judge, let Him judge between you and me. All I am telling you is the truth, and you don't believe it. If that makes me a heretic in your eyes, I am happy to remain one, in your eyes. "Regarding total depravity - how come you say "pretty dog-gone depraved" and then say that man is not totally depraved? Either he is or he isn't. You quote Isa. 64:6-7, "But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs who stirs himself up to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us, and have consumed us because of our iniquities... I'm glad that you chose a Scripture that IN AND OF ITSELF, 100% supports the belief that man is totally depraved." Pilgrim, didn't you notice that word LIKE in there? If I tell you I have a watch that is LIKE a $1,000.00 Rolex that I'd like to sell you- will you be disappointed when you buy it and it's NOT TOTALLY a $1,000.00 Rolex? Cause if you would be, wouldn't you be a hypocrite? After all, to you LIKE is the same thing as TOTAL. The point is, a LITTLE leaven leavens the whole lump. 1Co 5:6 "Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:" You see, only the little bit of leaven had to be purged NOT THE *TOTAL* LUMP! True that the little bit of leaven ruins the whole lump while it remains, but not true that the whole lump is totally corrupt. Do you see a difference there between "total" and "enough" yet? Actually, we aren't really speaking that far apart on this particular point. Another analogy- Mat 5:29 "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." You see, just a little leaven, about the size of your hand, or even your eye, is enough to make a person ***LIKE*** an unclean thing. Or take the family of Achan- The story is in Jos 6:16- 7:11, and it's long so I'll spare quoting it here. The point is, although the whole tribe of Israel was pure before the Lord, because of the sins of one man, the whole tribe was unclean- "Israel hath sinned" The same with the account in 1 Cor. 5. One man sinned, and it brought reproach upon the whole congregation (remember the church is likened to ONE body!). So, was Israel or Corinth TOTALLY corrupted by the sins of one person? No, just corrupted ENOUGH! That's what I meant by pretty darn depraved. If man is totally depraved, then God should have no reason to redeem man, He should just wipe them out and start over. But man has parts of him that are redeemable, therefore, not totally corrupt. Mat 10:31 "Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." But, man has enough corruption within him, that he will not reach nor please God of or by his own means- on that we are agreed. Because of the infiltration of that small (or large) bit of corruption. But, that is not to say that man could not live righteously if he really so chose to do so. There is a difference between "will not" and "cannot": Rom 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Rom 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" That is merely the foreknowledge of God, nothing more. It says- all have sinned, past tense, not all will sin. Actually, Pilgrim, I personally think that this is part of a problem Christians have in reaching people for God. Most people, if they were TOTALLY corrupt, would not resist the realization of their need for God. It is actually because people aren't totally corrupt that some people don't seek God! They see themselves as pretty good people, and therefore feel God is in their lives, so what need have they of more? That's also the problem I have with you. You have a form of religion, even a form of the true one, but you only have parts of the truth, and are satisfied with it. ---------- "...It signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature that is total in principle, although not in degree (for no one is as bad as he or she might be). No part of us is untouched by sin, and no action of ours is as good as it should be. Consequently, nothing we do is ever meritorious in God's eyes..." So much of your description of "original sin" is similar to what I believe (though I wouldn't call it "original sin") that I don't feel I need to comment on it, until we come to statements like this: "You quote Mark 10:14 - and... - what are you trying to say? What is the meaning you insert into this verse, TomR? Please explain." "Regarding Romans 7:9 - Oh my gosh! I don't mean to be rude, but you are making blatant errors in interpretation. He was alive without the Law because he didn't know it. He was only alive in his own eyes, but when he saw that the Law required obedience and that he broke the laws continually (especially covetousness), he died, he was condemned - he saw that he was sinful. So "We are born sinners because in Adam all fell" - R.C. Sproul. YES! "Note that I did NOT walk in disobedience ALL the time" - TomR. NOT!" Again, Pilgrim, you have made a god whom I have no desire to worship. Last time you made a Father that wouldn't die on the cross, but instead sent His son, because the Father wouldn't/couldn't go, and you called that love, which I call despicable. Now you've made a god who punishes children for the sins of their fathers, something God said He wouldn't do. I quoted Mar 10:14 "But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: _for of such_ is the kingdom of God." These children are innocent in Jesus' eyes, and bound for heaven. Jesus didn't put any stipulations on them. In your theology they are not bound for heaven. They are bound for hell, before they even know to do good or to do evil. In your theology they must be punished for the sins of their father. This is contrary to the scriptures, and contrary to a holy God. "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, NEITHER SHALL THE CHILDREN BE PUT TO DEATH FOR THE FATHERS: EVERY MAN SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH FOR HIS OWN SIN" -Deuteronomy 24:16. But, in Exodus 20:5: "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS UPON THE CHILDREN unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" -Exodus 20:5 and 34:7, Deut. 5:9. Have you ever heard the saying- 'like father, like son'? Are there any psychologists out there who would disagree that it is A FACT OF LIFE that children pick up bad habits from their parents!?! Very often I see my shortcomings GLARINGLY reflected back at me in the actions of my children, and I shudder! But thank God they pick up good habits, also. Now let's look at Ezekiel 18:19-20, and see how PERFECTLY God says this very thing- "But if a man be just, AND DO THAT WHICH IS LAWFUL AND RIGHT... Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. "If he beget A SON THAT IS A ROBBER, A SHEDDER OF BLOOD, and that doeth the like to any one of these things... (sin, sin, sin, etc.)... SHALL HE THEN LIVE? HE SHALL NOT LIVE: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. "Now, lo, if he beget a son, that SEETH ALL HIS FATHER'S SINS which he hath done, and considereth, AND DOETH NOT SUCH like... HE SHALL NOT DIE for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. "As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. "YET SAY YE, WHY? DOTH NOT THE SON BEAR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER?" God answers- "When the son hath DONE that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath DONE them, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE. THE ***SOUL*** **THAT** **SINNETH**, IT SHALL DIE. The son shall NOT bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. "But IF THE WICKED WILL TURN FROM ALL HIS SINS that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE, HE SHALL NOT DIE" -Ezekiel 18:5-21. (Please NOTE THAT WORD- **SOUL**, I will be referring back to it). Now let's look at Isaiah 14:21- "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities" -Isaiah 14:21. "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not..."-1 Samuel 15:2-3. Up until the time of David, the Amalekites continued to COMMIT THE SAME INIQUITY OF THEIR FATHERS, for it is written- "Lo, THINE ENEMIES make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and CONSULTED AGAINST THY HIDDEN ONES. They have said, Come, and LET US CUT THEM OFF from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, AND AMALEK; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre" -Psalms 83:1-7. "Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that YE ALLOW THE DEEDS of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres" -Luke 11:47-48. "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and YE DO THAT WHICH YE HAVE SEEN WITH YOUR FATHER. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, IF YE WERE ABRAHAM'S CHILDREN, YE WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM... Ye DO THE DEEDS OF your father... Ye are of your father the devil, AND THE LUSTS OF YOUR FATHER YE WILL DO" -John 8:38-44. "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: AS YOUR FATHERS DID, SO DO YE" -Acts 7:51. You see, they were still committing the SAME INIQUITIES as their fathers. They weren't being PUNISHED, or DYING for the sins their fathers had committed in the past, they were being destroyed for ALLOWING THE DEEDS OF THEIR FATHERS because they WERE STILL COMMITTING ***THE SAME INIQUITIES OF*** THEIR FATHERS!!! ------- "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL" -Matthew 10:28 You see, this is why Ezekiel 18:20 says- "THE *SOUL* *THAT* *SINNETH*, IT SHALL DIE". And that is what "death" and "punishment" are- everlasting destruction (total removal) from the presence of the Lord. (Some people don't seem to understand that the only reason we ARE alive at all is "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" -Acts 17:28). -------- Do you see what this is saying, Pilgrim? God punishes people for their own deeds, not the deeds of anyone else. Not their parents, and not the deeds of Adam. If He does, He is unholy according to His own standards- which is what your philosophers Augustine and Calvin have made your man-made idol god to be- unholy by the standards of the bible. Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, AS by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for THAT ALL HAVE SINNED: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." We see in Romans 5:12 that God does "visit" the iniquity on the children of the parents. In other words, the children inherit the desire for sin instead of righteousness. But, it specifically says "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." This is merely insight from the foreknowledge of God- that all will sin. Is a newborn baby a sinner? How then can a newborn baby be worthy of hell and death? According to your theology, even a newborn baby is worthy of death and hell simply because Adam sinned. Ezekiel 18:20 says- "THE ***SOUL*** THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE". The bible says, after listing the deeds of the unrighteous, who are worthy of death- Rom 1:32 "Who KNOWING the judgment of God, that THEY WHICH COMMIT such things are worthy of death," The Bible also says something else that you can't say because of your 'original sin' or Calvinist election doctrine: Act 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive THAT GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS: 35 BUT IN EVERY NATION HE THAT FEARETH HIM, AND WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS, IS ACCEPTED WITH HIM. And what is that work that we are to do? Phi 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling." Heb 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us LABOUR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." That rest is the Holy Ghost, with speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance as the outward sign: Isa 28:11 "For WITH STAMMERING LIPS AND ANOTHER TONGUE will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, THIS IS THE REST wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." Please continue with Part two, called: salvation by grace THROUGH, NOT BEFORE (and therefore without) faith! |