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Hello Pilgrim, Thanks for getting back to me, and reposting your message. As to Calvin being your "spiritual father," I have already explained that. Your own admissions only continue to confirm that fact, not exonerate yourself- "...John Calvin... I do believe he was a great Christian and a genius however. I agree with the teachings he has layed out..." I'm sure the Pharisee's Jesus spoke to were no less adamant than you that they were not of their father the devil, nor could they be convinced either, by Jesus no less- Joh 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." Now, where did I get my information that Calvin murdered M. Servetus? Well, I did quote my sources (which, by the way, I see you neglected to do. Never mind). Anyway, here are some more sources- "Michael Servetus... by way of Geneva... was arrested by the magistrates on a charge of blasphemy and heresy. The magistrates of Geneva... referred the matter to their divines. The latter unanimously declared for punishment, CALVIN BEING ESPECIALLY URGENT AND EMPHATIC ON THE NECESSITY FOR PUTTING SERVETUS TO DEATH. Indeed Calvin had indicated earlier that if Servetus came to Geneva, he would do his best to prevent him from leaving alive. As Servetus refused to retract his opinions, he was condemned to death for heresy. He was burned at the stake on Oct. 27, 1553." -Encyclopedia Americana, Grolier, 1988, Vol. 24, page 584. "John Calvin's conception of the relationship of church and state was... that even though the personnel of church government and state government WERE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL, the two organizations should be distinct in their functions. It was the function of the church community to decide upon doctrine and to maintain moral discipline by spiritual censures; it was the function of the state to enforce this discipline upon recalcitrants. It will be noticed that this system is in fact almost identical with the medieval system that held that the duty of the secular arm was to enforce the doctrinal and disciplinary judgments of the church BY BURNING OBDURATE HERETICS and imprisoning excommunicates who refused to seek absolution and make amends." -Encyclopedia Britannica, Macropedia, vol. 4, page 592. "John Calvin... Between 1541 and 1555... faced challenges to his doctrinal authority. The most formidable of these came from Jerome Bolsec and Michael Servetus... Servetus was a Spanish doctor who published books attacking the central Christian doctrine of the Trinity... When Servetus came to Geneva in 1553, CALVIN SAW TO IT THAT HE WAS ARRESTED AND CONVICTED, with the emphatic assistance of foreign theologians, of heresy. SERVETUS WAS SUBSEQUENTLY BURNED TO DEATH AT THE STAKE. In both of these cases, and in others like them, the city government strongly supported Calvin." -Encyclopedia Britannica, Macropedia, vol. 3, pages 673-674. So, what are we seeing here, Pilgrim? That Calvin didn't really murder Servetus, he just turned him over to the "secular" government, which was in fact, IDENTICALLY THE SAME PEOPLE, just not officially the "church," and it was "those" people who murdered Servetus, therefore, Calvin was guiltless? Oh come on now! As if that wasn't what the normal punishment for heretics was, and the expected end for the accused, and Calvin didn't realize it? Are we so naive? However, I will concede to you that the evidence against Calvin is not exactly unanimous- "It has long been the delight of both infidels and some professed Christians, when they wish to bring odium upon the opinions of Calvin, to refer to his agency in the death of Michael Servetus... 'Calvin burnt Servetus!- Calvin burnt Servetus!' is a good proof with a certain class of reasoners, that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true... We have no wish to palliate any act of Calvin's which is manifestly wrong. ALL HIS PROCEEDINGS, in relation to the unhappy affair of Servetus, we think, CANNOT BE DEFENDED. Still it should be remembered that the true principles of religious toleration were very little understood in the time of Calvin. ALL THE OTHER REFORMERS THEN LIVING APPROVED of Calvin's conduct. Even the gentle and amicable Melancthon expressed himself in relation to this affair, in the following manner In a letter addressed to Bullinger, he says, 'I have read your statement respecting the blasphemy of Servetus, and praise your piety and judgment; and am persuaded that the Council of GENEVA HAS DONE RIGHT IN PUTTING TO DEATH THIS OBSTINATE MAN, who would never have ceased his blasphemies. I am astonished that any one can be found to disprove of this proceeding.' Farel expressly says, that 'Servetus deserved something worse than death. The truth is, although Calvin had some hand in the arrest and imprisonment of Servetus, he was unwilling that he should be burnt at all. 'I desire,' says he, 'that the severity of the punishment should be remitted.'... It cannot, however, be denied that in this instance, Calvin acted contrary to the benignant spirit of the Gospel... He declared he acted conscientiously, and PUBLICLY JUSTIFIED THE ACT. It was the opinion, that erroneous principles are punishable by the civil magistrate, that did the mischief... and to this, rather than to Trinitarianism... it ought to be imputed." -Fox's Book of Martyrs, Edited by W. B. Forbush, pages 186-187. What a feeble attempt to justify the actions of a murderer by a colleague! For such is Fox's Book of Martyrs, a book written by Protestants, to defend Protestantism in comparison to Catholicism. So, Fox's Book of Martyrs cannot actually be considered unbiased, now, can it? Nevertheless, we note some key words in the above- "'Calvin burnt Servetus!- Calvin burnt Servetus!' IS A GOOD PROOF with a certain class of reasoners, THAT THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY IS NOT TRUE" Amen!! "All his proceedings, in relation to the unhappy affair of Servetus, we think, cannot be defended" Wherefore? Mat 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits." "Still it should be remembered that the true principles of religious toleration were very little understood in the time of Calvin." Oneness weren't going around getting people arrested, and burnt at the stake for their beliefs- EVER! How come it's excusable for a Protestant-Reformer- EVER? "ALL THE OTHER REFORMERS then living APPROVED... Even... Melancthon... says, 'I... am persuaded that the Council of Geneva HAS DONE RIGHT IN PUTTING TO DEATH this obstinate man." A person really ought to be careful who they choose as companions, you know? 2Co 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" 1Jo 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1Co 5:9 "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: (let alone murderers!!!) 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto YOU NOT TO KEEP COMPANY, IF ANY MAN THAT IS CALLED A BROTHER BE a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." "... It cannot, however, be denied that in this instance, Calvin acted contrary to the benignant spirit of the Gospel... He... PUBLICLY JUSTIFIED THE ACT. It was the opinion, that erroneous principles are punishable by the civil magistrate, that did the mischief... and to this, rather than to Trinitarianism... it ought to be imputed." Do you NOT just SMELL the cover up? These are the best things an historian DEFENDER of Calvin can bring himself to say of him! Allow me to remind you that even your so-called "wonderful" author, R.C. Sproul, has admitted that Calvin was well known for his persecutions against those he claimed were heretics- "Add to the horror of the word predestination the public image of it's most famous teacher, John Calvin, and we shudder all the more. We see Calvin portrayed as a stern and grim-faced tyrant... who FOUND FIENDISH DELIGHT IN THE BURNING OF RECALCITRANT HERETICS. It is enough to cause retreat from the discussion altogether and reaffirm our commitment never to discuss religion..." R. C. Sproul, "Chosen By God" page 10. Now, I read this book by Sproul (having picked it up to gain some insight into your thought processes and beliefs, I might add). But, unless I missed something, I did NOT find where he addresses the seriousness of, let alone attempts to reverse, these charges against Calvin. Not even in his chapter in answer to "Questions and objections"! Yet he, as you, continues to defend his "Calvinistic" beliefs, even calling those beliefs "Calvinistic" himself, not as though he was being slanderously accused, but rather, finding no distaste or dishonor whatsoever in associating himself with murderers or their doctrines. "Ye shall know them by their fruits." (Mat 7:16) is a very sober charge to Christ's people. It infers not just that we AT FIRST may not, but rather, PROBABLY WILL NOT UNDERSTAND what the true teachers are saying, just as many did not understand Jesus' words. Yet, we should consider the actions of their deeds FIRST, before falling prey to their doctrines. AND- "search the scriptures daily whether those things be so" -Acts 17:11. "Regarding Calvinism, I'll just ask you one question for now: How depraved do you think man is? Please answer this question because it is very important." In my words? Pretty dog-gone depraved! I think of someone such as yourself as being most depraved. Not so much the A&A's around here, but such as yourself, who write pages and pages against the commandments of God (such as- Mar 12:29 "The first of all the commandments... The Lord our God is one Lord") all the while decieving yourself into thinking you are of God! 1Jo 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1Ti 1:4 giving "heed to fables... which minister questions... 6 ...having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what (you) say, nor whereof (you) affirm." Oh you do understand? Explain to me then, how three can be one, and at the same time three, without being a mystery, let alone a contradiction, and do it in the quoting of scriptures. If you can do that, you are wiser than all the Trinitarians throughout history! But you can't, though you will and have tried, and that is depravity! Depravity of wisdom. Depravity of understanding. Depravity of simple obedience to the simplest of commandments stated in the scripture, the word of God- The Lord our GOD IS ONE Lord. How depraved do I think man is according to the scriptures? Well... Isa 64:6 "...we are all AS an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are AS filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for THOU HAST HID THY FACE FROM US, and hast consumed us, BECAUSE OF OUR INIQUITIES." But, unlike the "Calvinistic" view, I would not say that man is either "utterly" nor "totally" depraved. After all, the scriptures say- Eph 5:8 "For ye were SOMETIMES darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light." Col 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked SOME TIME, when ye lived in them." Note that I did NOT walk in disobedience ALL the time- rather, ENOUGH of the time- Jam 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." Can someone who is of the kingdom of God be depraved? Mar 10:14 "...Jesus... said unto them, Suffer (allow) the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for OF SUCH IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD." Rom 7:9 "FOR I WAS ALIVE WITHOUT THE LAW ONCE: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (So much for your Catholic/Protestant unscriptural doctrine of original sin- "We are born sinners because in Adam all fell" -R.C. Sproul. NOT! We are sinners because- "to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." - Jam 4:17. As Paul said, and I reiterate- Rom 7:9 "...I WAS ALIVE WITHOUT THE LAW ONCE: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Jam 1:15 "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, WHEN IT IS FINISHED, BRINGETH FORTH DEATH. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17 EVERY good gift and EVERY perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." Christians aren't the only ones who have received good gifts from God. Can someone be utterly or totally depraved who has received good or perfect gifts from God? Act 17:22 "Then Paul... said... I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. WHOM THEREFORE YE IGNORANTLY WORSHIP, HIM DECLARE I UNTO YOU. 24 God that made the world and all things therein... 27 THAT THEY SHOULD SEEK THE LORD, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 FOR IN HIM WE LIVE, AND MOVE, AND HAVE OUR BEING; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." I know that you are asking this question about depravity because YOU and your Calvinism uphold TOTAL depravity of man. So, let me ask you, how can mankind, whom lives, moves, and has their being in God, be totally depraved? Rom 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I CONSENT UNTO THE LAW THAT IT IS GOOD. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." How can Paul be totally depraved here, if he can at least recognize that the law is good? Contrary to popular opinion, this verse was NOT speaking of Paul's then present condition, but his previous condition WITHOUT the Spirit. He told us so, when he prefaced this passage thusly- Rom 7:5 "For WHEN WE WERE (PAST TENSE) in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." A companion passage to prove this is- Gal 5:16 "This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YE SHALL NOT FULFIL THE LUST OF THE FLESH. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." But apparently your point is, that according to Calvinism, man has not the ability to even choose to obey God. As Sproul put it- "Most non-Reformed views of predestination fail to take seriously the fact that fallen man is spiritually dead... But... dead men will not open their mouths to receive anything." First off, scripturally speaking, death DOES NOT MEAN cessation of existence. It means separation from God. (See 2 Thess. 1:7-9, Luk 16:22-31, Rom 6:23 and Isaiah 59:2). 1Co 15:35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 THOU FOOL, THAT WHICH THOU SOWEST IS NOT QUICKENED, EXCEPT IT DIE: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body... 42 SO ALSO IS THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. IT IS SOWN IN CORRUPTION; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: 43 It is SOWN IN DISHONOUR; it is raised in glory: it is SOWN IN WEAKNESS; it is raised in power: 44 It is SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL body... 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." This is where your R.C. Sproul (and "Reformed theology") is TOTALLY confused, and completely backwards to the truth. He says- "A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: 'regeneration precedes faith.'... We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again in order that we may believe." What Bible is he reading THIS out of, pray tell? The HOLY Bible completely contradicts the above statement of Sproul's- Joh 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Eph 1:12 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER THAT YE HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Joh 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." Luk 11:13 "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit TO THEM THAT ASK him?" with Rom 10:14 "HOW THEN SHALL THEY CALL ON HIM IN WHOM THEY HAVE NOT BELIEVED? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Act 1:4 Jesus "...COMMANDED them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but WAIT FOR THE PROMISE of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Heb 10:36 "FOR YE HAVE NEED OF PATIENCE, THAT, AFTER YE HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, YE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." Act 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For THE PROMISE IS UNTO YOU (NOT THE GIFT- THE PROMISE OF THE GIFT!), and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Now, truly it is, that- "the goodness of God LEADETH THEE to repentance" - Rom 2:4. And truly, we are-"Buried with him in baptism... THROUGH THE FAITH OF THE OPERATION OF GOD..." Col 2:12. But, there are some things GOD CANNOT DO FOR US! Like REPENTANCE! Remember- 1Co 15: 36 "...THAT WHICH THOU SOWEST **IS NOT QUICKENED, EXCEPT IT DIE**: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body... 42 SO *ALSO* IS THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. IT IS SOWN IN CORRUPTION; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: 43 It is SOWN IN DISHONOUR; it is raised in glory: it is SOWN IN WEAKNESS; it is raised in power: 44 It is SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL body..." This is why Jesus said- Mar 8:34 "...Whosoever will come after me, let HIM deny HIMSELF, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose HIS life FOR MY SAKE and the gospel's, the same shall save it." God CAN'T die out to our old nature FOR US! Yet, He can't quicken us UNTIL we die out to ourselves! Dying out to our selves IS NOT the same act as being born again. THIS IS one area where your R.C. SPROUL HAS FATALLY ERRED. Jesus' death was NOT the same act as His resurrection! Neither is ours to be! Now truly we- "...through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body..." - Rom 8:13. And truly- the "LORD... hast wrought all our works in us." - Isa 26:12. Yet, nevertheless-"I tell you... except YE repent, ye shall all likewise perish." - Luk 13:3. The same goes for baptism in water- Rom 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that LIKE AS CHRIST WAS raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been (past tense) planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be (future tense) also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified (past tense) with him, that the body of sin might be (future tense) destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead (past tense) with Christ, we believe that we shall (future tense) also live with him... 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 LIKEWISE reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Ok, this is getting long, and it's getting late, so I'll cut this short. ;-) I would also like to remind you that you did not (at least in this last posting) respond to the scriptures I previously gave refuting Calvinistic predestination. I've got more to say, and more scriptures on the subject, but we have enough to start with. Talk to ya later. Please continue with Pilgrim, I really didn't expect this to get so long. sorry... |