Dear Tom Raddatz,

Dear Pastor Cook,

Thank you very much for responding, and enjoining me in this discussion. I appreciate it very much!

I sought the Lord for a week for how to reply before typing a single word. Please accept that this reply is THOROUGH which necessitates a bit of length. I don't apologize for that, but I do ask your patience that you do please take the time to read it, and not respond hastily.

Rather than clog our emails, I'll just send the web site links here. Yes, I did post your email at my web site! :-)

Your reply- http://www.1lord1faith.org/wm/Oneness/CooksReply1.htm
My reply back- http://www.1lord1faith.org/wm/Oneness/replytoCook1.1.htm
The main page off my home page where this can be accessed-http://www.1lord1faith.org/wm/Oneness/Christ%20Is%20All.htm

Have a great day!
-Tom Raddatz

I'm going to take the liberty to change the order of the questions in this response-

Tom's QUESTION B1: Where did you got this Trinitarian terminology from if not the Bible and if not from resorting to history as you have testified you have not done?

Gene Cook's response B1: During the debate the statement that I made in reference to history was that I did not attempt to appeal to church history to prove the Trinity

. Instead I used only the bible.

To more directly answer your question I suppose I got my terminology the same place you got yours.(Oneness) Men have used human language to try and describe what God is like. If you object to that explanation than if you are going to be consistent you should refrain from using the terms Bible, Omnipotence, Oneness, Pentecostal. Apostolic, incarnation, etc. For none of these are found in the bible.

Tom's Rejoinder B1-

Bible. As a matter of fact, the word Bible is in the Bible. The word "Bible" is merely an anglicized version of the Greek word "biblos" which is found 16 times in 14 verses, and its plural "biblion" beginning with Matthew 1:1 is found 30 times in 27 passages in the New Testament. Webster's- "Bible... Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Medieval Latin biblia, from Greek, plural of biblion book, diminutive of byblos papyrus, book, from Byblos." Therefore, to say "Bible" isn't in the Bible is simply a false and misleading statement. Additionally such a statement is akin to denying and disallowing that the scriptures were commissioned to be written to, which would necessarily require it being translated into, all the peoples of all languages of the world.

Omnipotence.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God OMNIPOTENT (G#3841 pantokrator) reigneth.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty (S#3841. pantokrator, the all-ruling, i.e. God as absolute and universal sovereign:--Almighty, Omnipotent.)

Saying "omnipotence" isn't in the bible is like saying, "brings" or "comes" is not in the Bible. The word "Omnipotent" is very clearly in the bible, and "Omnipotence" is merely a form of the word "omnipotent." Also, the definition of "omnipotence" is stated in scripture.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power (exousia) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Oneness. God is called "One" 45 times in the Bible and "Holy One" 48 times in the Bible.

Webster's- "Oneness... the quality or state or fact of being one…

The word "Oneness" is merely a derivative of the word "One" which the Bible clearly declares God to be in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, even relegating such a statement to the first commandment-

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Not just "one" God, but the Lord our God is ONE LORD. There is only ONE LORD-

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jesus commended Thomas for not making a distinction between the two-

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord AND my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge...

Jesus said, John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Pentecostal. The Lord Jesus warned-

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Stephan reproved the Jews in Acts 7:51 saying- "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

And Jude warned-

Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, BUILDING UP YOURSELVES on your most holy faith, PRAYING IN THE HOLY GHOST,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God,

Paul the Apostle explained what praying in the Holy Ghost meant-

1 Cor 14:14 For IF I PRAY IN AN UNKNOWN TONGUE, MY SPIRIT PRAYETH, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I WILL PRAY WITH THE SPIRIT, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 FOR THOU VERILY GIVEST THANKS WELL, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

And there are those who would rather not obey Jesus' exhortation-

Luke 19:46 (Jesus said), It is written, My house is the house of prayer:

Nor Paul's-

1 Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not (double negative) to speak with tongues.

1 Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; AND LET HIM SPEAK to himself, and to God.

Jesus took this concept one step further, making worshipping "in Spirit" imperative-

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND in truth.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In the book of Acts we find that Peter had this to say- Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth THIS, WHICH YE NOW SEE AND HEAR.

In the book of Acts, the same gift of the Holy Ghost, and the same "which ye now see and hear" is being manifested-

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 FOR THEY HEARD THEM speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost AS WELL AS WE?

The word "Pentecostal" has merely come to mean those who have gone back to a purely and clearly biblically stated doctrine of receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost in the same manner in which it was first shed on the day of Pentecost, which is with speaking in tongues-

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:

This event was a fulfillment of the law being written on the heart, as was prophesied by God to His people-

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is exactly what God does when He gives the baptism of the Holy Ghost-

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect

A SHADOW… not the very image of the things -

Exo 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. 4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. 5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Deu 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. 11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. 13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

the very image of the things- Receiving the Holy Ghost!

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; EVERY ONE SHALL RECEIVE OF THY WORDS. 4 Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation

All the same elements are involved in receiving the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:1-4) that were involved in the giving of the 10 commandments (Exodus 19:17-20), both of which fit the patterns outlined in Psa 50:3-5, Deut 4:10-13 & 33:2-4. Namely-

A. God brings the people before Him- "Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God" compared with "they were all with one accord in one place" and "Gather my saints together unto me"

B. There are physical manifestations- "The whole mount quaked greatly" compared with "there came a sound from heaven as of (i.e. descriptive, not actual) a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting" and "it shall be very tempestuous round about him"

C. There is the presence of fire- "the LORD descended upon it in fire" compared with "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them", "a fire shall devour before him", and "upon earth he shewed thee his great fire"

D. God speaks- "Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice" compared with "they... began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit (God IS a Spirit!) gave them utterance," "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence," and "thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire"

E. The law is written on tables of stone/flesh- "And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai... and Moses went up" compared with "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost," "Our God shall come... that he may judge his people" "that he might instruct thee"

Again, the word "Pentecostal" has come to differentiate between those who receive the law written on the heart from those who resist it as was warned and prophesied. Why someone would want to resist the Holy Ghost is beyond me, for it is simply the most glorious experience available in all of creation!

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

1 Pet 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Those who deny this experience completely, or that cheat themselves or others out of it by imitating it through making themselves gibber, do God and their souls a GREAT disservice!

Also, since the "that-which-you-see-and-hear" Pentecostal (as in day of Pentecost) gift of the Holy Ghost is "the promise" that Jesus received from the Father (Acts 2:33), and shed forth not only at Pentecost but consecutively to all believers where it is mentioned in Acts, then it is manifest that those who don't receive this promise are the children of the flesh spoken of in Galatians-

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (Acts 2:33 ...the promise of the Holy Ghost... which ye... see and hear.)

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Apostolic. This is another word that is merely derived from a biblical word- Apostle. The word is used to differentiate those who follow in the Apostle's doctrine; from those who don't, which we are warned there will be-

2 Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

The LORD adds to the church those that follow in the Apostle's doctrine-

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers...

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

To not follow in the Apostles (Apostolic) example is to lose one's soul-

1 Tim 1:3 As I besought thee... that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

Phil 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Incarnation. Here is a word that simply symbolizes a CLEARLY AND SPECIFICALLY STATED scriptural doctrine-

Webster's- "in·car·na·tion... 1 a (1) : the embodiment of a deity or spirit in some earthly form (2) capitalized : the union of divinity with humanity in Jesus Christ"

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is a clearly stated Biblical doctrine that needs NO extra-biblical words or interpretations to defend, define or declare. I have not put any words in God's mouth in which to state it. The word "incarnation" simply symbolizes this biblically stated doctrine.

Trinity. Then we come to the words that are used to defend, define and declare the Trinity doctrine. Trinity, holy Trinity, Divine Trinity, Triune, Three-in-one, Three-of-one, God-the-Son, God-the-Holy-Ghost, Separate Persons, Separate Egos, Separate Individualities, Divine Plurality, Divine Individuality, Divine Unity, Mystery-above-reason, Eternal Son.

Philosophers who were specifically and deliberately attempting to reconcile pagan polytheistic thought with the Bible- introduced the terminology, and the concept of Trinity itself, to Christianity. This is a clearly documented, verifiable historic fact.

"The first Christian to use Greek philosophy in the service of the Christian faith WAS JUSTIN MARTYR (martyred c. 162-168)... this was carried on in the Greek speaking world by Clement Of Alexandria (c. 150-c. 215), a persuasive Christian Humanist, and by the greatest of the Alexandrian Christian teachers, Origen (c.184-254)... The Greek philosophical theology that developed during the Trinitarian controversies over the relationships among the persons of the Godhead, which were settled at the ecumenical councils of Nicea (325) and Constantinople (381), owed a great deal to Origen... Its greatest representatives on the orthodox side were the three Christian Platonist theologians of Cappadocia, Basil of Caesarea (c. 330-379), Gregory of Nazianus (c. 330-390), and Basil's brother Gregory of Nyssa (died 394)... Augustinian Platonism. Each of the great Christian Platonists understood Platonism and applied it to the understanding of his faith in his own individual way; and of no one of them was this more true than of Augustine... In his anthropology, Augustine was firmly Platonist... In his theology, insofar as Augustine's thought about God was Platonic, he conformed fairly closely to the general pattern of Christian Platonism... Perhaps the most distinctive influence of Plotinian Neoplatonism on his thinking about God was in his Trinitarian theology..." -Encyclopedia Brittanica, Vol. 4, page 542-543

"The definition of the Christian faith as contained in the creeds of the ecumenical synods of the early church indicate that unbiblical categories of Neoplatonic philosophy were used IN THE FORMULATION OF the doctrine of the Trinity, as well as in Christology and the doctrine of man..." --Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th edition, 1984, Vol. 4, page 476.

"Introduction of Neoplatonic themes... Christ as the Logos, under the influence of Neoplatonic philosophy, became the subject of a speculative theology... This question was answered through the Neoplatonic metaphysics of being... In Neoplatonic philosophy both the nous and the idea of the world are designated the hypostases (essences, or natures) of the transcendent God. Christian theology took the Neoplatonic metaphysics of substance as well as its doctrine of hypostases as the departure point for interpreting the relationship of the 'Father' to the 'Son' in terms of the Neoplatonic hypostases doctrine... The Neoplatonic concept of substance... was foreign to the New Testament itself... The dispute on the basis of the metaphysics of substance... led to concepts that have no foundation in the New Testament." -Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th edition, 1984, Vol. 4, page 485.

"TRINITY. The term 'Trinity' (Greek troas) was first used by Theophilus of Antioch (fl.c. 180 A.D.)... Judaism emerged...as the purest form of monotheism in the ancient world... The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology, especially of the recovered Aristotlianism of the 13th century. The classical exposition is found in the works of St. Thomas Aquinas, whose views on this subject have dominated most of later Christian theology, both Roman Catholic and Protestant." -Encyclopedia Americana, 1983

"Trinity... It is generally agreed that the doctrine was formulated with progressively increasing clarity AS IT'S TERMINOLOGY DEVELOPED..." -Colliers Encyclopedia, 1982, pg. 480.

In other words, if you don't believe that the development, and formulation of the Trinity was a later invention, as it's words were developed (adding to the "words" of the Bible): try describing the Trinity in words NOT found in scripture. Try describing the Trinity WITHOUT the following unscriptural words and/or phrases: Trinity, holy Trinity, Divine Trinity, Triune, Three-in-one, Three-of-one, God-the-Son, God-the-Holy-Ghost, Separate Persons, Separate Egos, Separate Individualities, Divine Plurality, Divine Individuality, Divine Unity, Mystery-above-reason.

Furthermore, is the method by which these pagan thoughts were imposed, and I do mean imposed, upon the church.

"Trinity... was first defined by the earliest council of churches. This was the first council of Nicea in 325 A.D..." World Book, 1984, vol. 19.

The pagan Roman Emperor Constantine PRESIDED OVER that council, and ratified their decisions...

"The emperor Constantine granted to himself, as 'bishop of foreign affairs,' certain rights to church leadership. These concerned not only the 'outward' activity of the church but also encroached upon the inner life of the church- as shown by the role of the emperor in summoning and leading imperial councils and ratifying their decisions..." . -Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th edition, 1984, Vol. 4, pages 508-509.

Now, this event may outwardly seem innocent enough, until one becomes aware that Jesus SPECIFICALLY TOLD US where on earth SATAN'S throne is-

Rev 2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos... thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat (THRONE) is"

This is also a LEGAL FACT! Historically, the throne of Babylon came, through conquest and inheritance, to the Greek Empire! (Remember, Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, but Satan's is!)

"Greek Civilization, Ancient... The end of the struggle for succession, 286-276 (B.C.)...

Alexander's empire had settled down into the three territorial states... along with Pergamum (Pergamos)." -Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th edition, 1984, vol. 8, pgs. 378-379.

Eventually this kingdom (throne) of Satan was legally BEQUEATHED TO ROME-

"Pergamum... became important only in the Hellenistic Age (323-30 B.C), when it served as the residence of the Attalid dynasty... When Eumenes's son and second successor, Attalus III, died without an heir, he bequeathed the kingdom to Rome (133AD). Rome accepted it... The kingdom of Pergamum yielded much wealth... to Rome". Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th edition, 1984, vol. VII, pg. 873.

It was the legal heir to Satan's throne (Constantine) that presided over the council that first defined the Trinity doctrine! Remember, this throne was pointed out to us by JESUS in Revelations. He wanted us to KNOW IT with good reason!

Trinitarians are the spiritual offspring of murderers-

"This (Trinity doctrine of distinction of persons in one substance) let loose a fury among mankind that has rarely been paralleled. Millions suffered violence or death in the pursuant wars and persecutions. Hundreds of bishops were exiled or murdered at the command of other bishops who, when the tide turned, visited the same treatment upon their rivals." The Story of Christian Origins, M.A. Larson, New Republic Book, p 572.

And Jesus says- Mat 23:31 "Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that YE ARE THE CHILDREN OF THEM which killed the prophets."

Act 7:52 "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the JUST ONE; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers"

The Trinitarian doctrine nullifies the commandments of God-

Laying aside the commandment of God-

Mar 12:29 "The first of all the commandments is... The Lord our God is one Lord"

for (Gal 3:20) "God is one" and

Col 3:11 "Christ is all"

Col 2:10 "And ye are complete in him"

Trinitarians hold the tradition of men-

"In the unity of the Godhead there are three persons... the Trinity" Robert Bowman, Christian Research Inst.

Making the commandments of God of none effect by your tradition... (Mark 7:8, 13)

The Trinitarian doctrine causes God's people to commit spiritual whoredom-

I have shown that the doctrine of the Trinity comes from Babylon-

"THE ANCIENT BABYLONIANS... RECOGNIZED IN WORDS THE UNITY of the Godhead; and... IN THE UNITY OF THAT ONE ONLY GOD OF THE BABYLONIANS, THERE WERE THREE PERSONS... THE RECOGNITION OF A TRINITY WAS UNIVERSAL IN ALL THE ANCIENT NATIONS OF THE WORLD..." -The Two Babylons, chapter 2, by Rev. A. Hislop.

About this God says- Deut 6:14 "YE SHALL NOT GO AFTER OTHER GODS, of the gods of the people which are round about you"

Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: 15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and THEY GO A WHORING AFTER THEIR GODS..."

The Trinity doctrine corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ through the subtlety of Satan-

2 Cor. 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Trinitarians themselves admit- "...It is possible to call Jesus God and still have another Jesus (2 Cor. 11:4), if in calling Him God one means something significantly different from what the Bible means... It is doubtful that any heretic... has ever admitted to denying the Son. Instead, HERETICS OF ALL KINDS HAVE SIMPLY REDEFINED THE MEANING OF THE TERM SON..." -Ralph Bowman, Christian Research International.

Incredibly, the same Trinitarian then shamelessly goes on to redefine Christ- "...What the Bible means... when the Bible says that Jesus is God, it means that He exists eternally as a divine person in relationship with the Father... it means that He is the second person of a triune God" -Ralph Bowman, Christian Research International.

Defined- "I Jesus...I am... the FIRST AND THE LAST..." -Revelation 22:13-16.

REDEFINED- "He is the second person of a triune God" -Bowman.

Trinitarians are reprobate, deceivers, and anti-Christ-

2 Cor. 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU, EXCEPT YE BE REPROBATES?"

"From heaven Jesus still exercises lordship over us, but, NOT BEING physically (i.e. in the flesh-Tom R) WITH US NOW, He transmits His directions by means of the Holy Spirit..." Dr. Billy Graham, The Holy Spirit, pg 5.

2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, WHO CONFESS NOT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH. THIS IS A DECEIVER AND AN ANTICHRIST."

If Jesus Christ is in His saints, but the Spirit in Trinitarians is a distinct person from Jesus Christ, it is not Jesus Christ that dwells in Trinitarians!

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-christ" -2 John 7. According to George Ricker Berry's Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, 2 John 7 literally reads, in the original Greek- "...Those who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh- this is the deceiver and the anti-christ". For comparison's sake, the Greek word "erkomenouz - coming" here in 2 John 7, is the same word and form as "coming" in Matt. 16:28. The word used in 1 John 4:2 & 3 is "eleluthota - is come" being a present tense form of the word "eltho - to come" and not a past tense form such as "elthon - came", used in Matt. 8:2, nor a future tense form as "eleuoetai - will come", in Acts 1:11.

1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come (present tense) in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist..."

I know I supply a lot of information, and I thought to cut some of this short, but I feel it is important to detail here the extent of the impact that merging pagan thought with Biblical has accomplished. I can't apologize for being so long winded, but I can ask you to please patiently take as much time as you need to honestly reflect on the material I am presenting you.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

QUESTION B2: By stating that you have not resorted to history, are you implying that you have made these terms and definitions up yourself out of thin air without any influence whatsoever from the historical formulations of the Trinity and it's terminology by Christian-Platonic Philosophers? Sir, would that not be plagiarism?

You might be better off scratching this question in light of the above answer. :)

Let's remember that I am not the one who stated he hadn't "attempted to appeal to church history to prove the Trinity." Personally, I am not at all ashamed of my Apostolic heritage, and am just as comfortable talking about history in defense (though not in definition) of both Oneness and Pentecostal doctrines.

Now, let's look at the definition of the word "word" in the Bible, because it doesn't mean just a single word as our western minds would suppose-

Strong's Greek "#3056. logos, log'-os; from G3004; something said (including the thought); by impl. a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extens. a computation; spec. (with the art. in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ)..."

Therefore, when the Bible says-

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Or-

Prov 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

What it is really saying is-

Prov 30:6 Add thou not unto his (something said (including the thought); by impl. a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive), lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

With this in mind, let us set the facts straight here-

1. You have not and cannot demonstrate that the words "Bible, Omnipotence, Oneness, Pentecostal. Apostolic, incarnation, etc." are anything more than labels for explicitly stated Biblical thoughts and concepts.

2. You have not and cannot demonstrate that these words were originally developed &/or introduced with the explicit purpose of merging pagan polytheistic thought with Biblical monotheistic thought with the specific intent to thin down pure Biblical Monotheism.

3. You have not and cannot demonstrate that these words were ever even remotely applied to enable a pagan emperor, heir of Satan's throne in specific, to impose polytheistic, or any other paganistic thoughts upon Christians under penalty of death.

4. You have not and cannot demonstrate scripturally any evil at all in lifting up Jesus as the One and Only Almighty God!

John 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up."

John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 HE SHALL GLORIFY ME: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine..."

Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord"

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:

1 John 2:3 "And HEREBY WE DO KNOW that we know him, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth (Jesus Christ) is not in him.

Col 3:11 ...Christ is all, and in all.

1 John 5:20 "And WE KNOW that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son JESUS CHRIST. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD, AND ETERNAL LIFE. 21 Little children, KEEP YOURSELVES FROM IDOLS (falsehoods). Amen.

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE (see above): no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, HAVE I BEEN SO LONG TIME WITH YOU, AND YET HAST THOU NOT KNOWN ME, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

Conversely,

5- You have not, AND CANNOT, even when given not only opportunity, but having been specifically requested to, demonstrated even one scripture, without putting words in God's mouth, any scriptural declaration or definition of even one such of the terms that is necessary in order to declare, define or defend the Trinity doctrine.

So I see ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON WHATSOEVER in the origin and use of Trinitarian terminology versus Oneness terminology. Pagan philosophers invented Trinitarian extra-biblical terminology for the specific purpose of harmonizing pagan polytheistic doctrine with Biblical monotheism. Oneness terminology can either be found actually in scripture in one word form or another, or the specific doctrines, which such terminology merely represents, can be stated and defined completely through scriptural quotation alone. You can quote all the Bible you want, in any sequence of verses you want, practically no matter how badly taken in or out of context, and you will still never be able to state or define the Trinity doctrine through any such quoted scripture or combination of scriptures. If you could have, you would have. And yet the Bible tells us-

2 Tim 3:15 …that… the holy scriptures… are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Since the Bible thoroughly furnishes us unto all good works, but does not furnish a declaration, a definition, or even the terminology of the Trinity, it is manifest that the Trinity is by NO means a good work according the Bible!

Furthermore, in your stating-

"If you object to that explanation than if you are going to be consistent you should refrain from using the terms Bible, Omnipotence, Oneness, Pentecostal. Apostolic, incarnation, etc. For none of these are found in the bible."

I would like to point out to you that this was Adam's only alibi also. Which was to point to someone else and attempt to excuse and justify himself based on that plea. It didn't work for Adam, so I'm sure it won't work for anyone else either. God is not mocked.

Therefore my response to you is that you might be better off addressing the question openly and honestly rather than evading them next time. :-)

The question remains, and the Trinity remains questionable.

QUESTION B3: Were you not aware that the doctrine of the Trinity is by no means a distinctive feature of certain "Christian" faiths? Were you aware that all Trinitarian "Christians" MUST trace their roots, NOT directly to Christ and the apostles, but to pagan philosophers who compromised strict Biblical monotheism with pagan Trinitarianism?

B3. This is precisely why I began the debate in the very first chapter of the very first book of the bible. So that these kind of straw man arguments might be avoided. I would also add that I am not bent on using the term "trinity" . I am okay with any terminology that accurately reflects the teaching of God's revelation.

If this were true, rather than relying on terminology from pagan polytheism, you would instead be open to using the Biblical expression, such as this one which totally contradicts the "distinct persons" dogma-

1 Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that ONE AND THE SELFSAME Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

In light of the evidence I've been giving you, I have hardly, by any stretch of the imagination presented a "straw-man" argument in asserting-

"...That when Trinitarians resort to the terminology of the Trinity, they ARE, by that fact alone, resorting to extra-biblical history. Therefore, to lead us to believe any different is nothing short of deception, fraud and denial..."

Two undeniable, irrefutable facts remain, you simply have not, and cannot state or defend the doctrine of the Trinity with scripture alone, and in order to defend and the define the Trinity, you are obligated to depend upon the definitions and terminology developed by pagan polytheistic philosophers determined to thin down biblical monotheism as a concession to Greek polytheism. And these two facts are exactly what you resort to each and every time you employ those same Trinitarian terms and doctrines, all the while attempting to give the impression these concepts and terms came straight from the Bible, and are a spiritual revelation.

Nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, could be more deceptive, deceitful and untruthful as regarding historical and biblical facts than the continued Trinitarian insistence that their doctrine is straight from the bible in light of such powerful and overwhelming evidence to the contrary that is being presented to you here.

I personally don't see how any people could possibly be any blinder. In fact, Trinitarian blindness is even worse than the blindness of the Mormons- with them, they just can't find physical evidence that Jesus walked on American soil. But with Trinitarians, not only can they not state their doctrines from scripture, there is seemingly no end of attestation to the irrefutable pagan polytheistic foundation of their doctrine during the fourth century A.D. But no matter how much factual information is put in front of their face about it, they continue to deny it. There could be nothing more like a spiritual eye test than what is in front of your face with the facts and scriptures you are reading right now. These historical facts and scriptural quotes are spiritually comparable to the biggest possible letters on the biggest possible eye chart at the doctors office one could imagine- and when put in front of Trinitarians eyes, no matter how close or far from their face, the response is the same- "I don't see it." That is blindness if there ever was blindness or there is no such thing as spiritual blindness!

It is written-

2 Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 …for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Second only to when the whole world will call anti-christ God and Messiah which is future, I can think of absolutely no greater delusion existent today than the Trinity doctrine. Not only do Trinitarians NOT see that their doctrine comes straight from pagan polytheism even when presented with such an overwhelming amount of evidence as you are being presented with, and even when challenged to quote scripture where such terms can actually be seen to be explicitly stated, they yet claim they still see "distinct persons" in the scriptures, but cannot produce even one scripture where such a statement can be directly quoted, even though they do present scriptures which they believe say such. But upon closer analysis, any clearly explicitly Trinitarian statements such as "distinct persons in the godhead" are actually completely and totally lacking in scripture.

That, dear sir, is a strong delusion!

"TRINITY. The term 'Trinity' (Greek troas) was first used by Theophilus of Antioch (fl.c. 180 A.D.)... JUDAISM EMERGED...AS THE PUREST FORM OF MONOTHEISM IN THE ANCIENT WORLD... The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology, especially of the recovered Aristotlianism (philosophy) of the 13th century. The classical exposition is found in the works of St. Thomas Aquinas, whose views on this subject have dominated most of later Christian theology, both Roman Catholic and Protestant." -Encyclopedia Americana, 1983

Judaism emerged as the purest form of monotheism, and the scriptures never once reprimanded the Jews for their absolute monotheism, quite the contrary-

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: WE KNOW WHAT WE WORSHIP: for salvation is of the Jews.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and (ye are) my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Here God (Jesus the Holy One) in two different scriptures testifies specifically that the Jews know who they worship, and are His witnesses that He is THE HOLY ONE. The Jews knew NOTHING of a "Holy Trinity," nor did the church even begin to until 100 plus years after the Apostles.

Jesus, the scripture tells us, is that Holy One-

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him,

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Jews understood there was a Holy One, not a Holy Trinity, and the early Christian church understood that Jesus was that very same Holy One.

Your interpretation of Genesis 1:26 would not even have been available until about the time of the council of Nicea in 325 A.D., or just slightly before it, as the philosophers began to develop their doctrine. The apostles specifically warned against precisely what was imposed at the council of Nicea, which philosophical thought alone even made such an Trinitarian interpretation of yours even possible-

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all

Therefore, my statement under this heading stands-

...Whether they admit it or not!

QUESTION B4: Surely you are aware of the scriptures warning God's people of defining Him by the doctrines, and philosophies of man, are you not?

Maybe you can quote me a chapter and verse on this one. I am not opposed to the principle you have stated however I am very careful what I attribute to be the words of God.

Gladly-

Deuteronomy 6:14 "Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you..."

"And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words... BEWARE lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD bodily. And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised... Buried with Him in baptism... through faith in the operation of God..." -Colossians 2:4- 3:11.

"...Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols (falsehoods). Amen" -1 John 5:20-21.

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth the a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, SAYING, LET US GO AFTER OTHER GODS, WHICH THOU HAST NOT KNOWN, AND LET US SERVE THEM; THOU SHALT NOT HEARKEN UNTO THE WORDS OF THAT PROPHET, OR THAT DREAMER OF DREAMS: FOR THE LORD YOUR GOD PROVETH YOU, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul... If thy brother... or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; NAMELY, OF THE *GODS* OF THE PEOPLE WHICH ARE ROUND ABOUT YOU, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; THOU SHALT NOT CONSENT UNTO HIM, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him..." -Deuteronomy 13:1-2.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

QUESTION B5: If you really want convince us of the Trinity doctrine, is it unreasonable for us to request you to demonstrate to us that you can describe God without resorting to history, but to describe and define your perspective of God with Bible terms and definitions only? (Which would mean without resorting to terminology and/or descriptions invented after the writing of the Bible.)

B5. In light of the answer I gave to Question B1 you should no longer find this question to be of any relevance. Unless of course you are willing to do the same and then we can just end this whole discussion and just stick to what the bible says and I suppose we would then be in agreement with every other cult who claims to teach only what the bible says.(i.e. J.W.s)

In light of the purely scripturally stated definition I gave you previously, and the response I have just given to your response to all these part B questions, and with this comment of yours, you have left me with no alternative than to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no scripture that explicitly states what you believe, in fact you appear to actually believe relying on scripture alone constitutes what you perceive as a cultic attitude.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things WHICH ARE WRITTEN in the law and in the prophets:

QUESTION B6: Failing this, would it be out of line to ask you to please be honest enough with yourself and us to admit you cannot state, defend, declare or define the doctrine of the Trinity without resorting to history, or putting words into God's mouth?

B6. Maybe you can answer this question for me since you are guilty of the very same thing.

Adam's Only Alibi again. And still no comparison in reality. The point is, in my original email I did present the Oneness doctrine stated entirely through scriptural quotation alone. Whereas, when given the opportunity, you have not, simply because you cannot.

Please continue with Part two of this reply