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Oneness of God vs. Trinity

His Commandment

(( There seems plenty of Biblical evidence that God is Three distinct persons and yet is also One.))

1 John 3:23 "And THIS IS HIS commandment, That we should BELIEVE ON THE NAME of his Son Jesus Christ"

When considering the nature of the Godhead, we MUST remember to keep the first COMMANDMENT of Jesus Christ-

Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD"

Let's see if we can agree on this-

We must learn NOT TO INTERPRET BY WHAT THE BIBLE IMPLIES, but what it explicitly states, especially while considering how other scriptures bear upon the interpretation. Whenever we have an interpretation of scripture that CONTRADICTS other explicitly stated scripture, it isn't the scripture that is wrong, but OUR PERSONAL, INCOMPLETE interpretation. Our interpretation of scripture can only be true, IF IT HARMONIZES ALL PASSAGES related to the subject.

Are we in agreement with this?

Let me give you some examples based on your statements, and answered with SPECIFIC, EXPLICITLY STATED scripture. (This post is not written with the intention to demean you in anyway, so please don't take it that way, OK?)

((There seems plenty of Biblical evidence that God is Three distinct persons and yet is also One.))

My question back to you is- A) Is it enough to rely on what the Bible "SEEMS" to say? (In other words- Is it okay to interpret by the implicit as in "seems plenty"? And B) Do we have other scriptures, bearing directly on the subject, that EXPLICITLY CONTRADICT this interpretation?

My answers would be A) NO (NO), and B) YES, most definitely!

For instance-

1 Cor. 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but THE SAME Spirit. 5 And there are DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATIONS, but the same Lord. 6 And there are DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, but it is THE SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL... 11 But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Notice that in this place, where Paul IS EXPLICITLY DEFINING THE GODHEAD, separation of "persons" is not mentioned or even considered, but is EXPLICITLY CONTRADICTED!!!

Since the Bible says GOD gave the gift of prophets-

1 Cor 12:28 "And GOD HATH SET some IN the church, first apostles, secondarily PROPHETS..."

But it also says that Jesus is THE ONE AND THE SAME who gave prophets-

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of THE GIFT OF CHRIST... 10 He that descended IS THE SAME ALSO THAT ascended up far above all heavens, that HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS.) 11 And HE GAVE SOME, apostles; and SOME, PROPHETS..."

Yet the scripture is also most adamant that it was the Holy Ghost that gives prophets-

1 Cor. 12:9 "...BY THE SAME SPIRIT; 10 ...to another PROPHECY..."

Therefore, as the scripture says-

Col. 3:11 "...CHRIST IS ALL, and in all."

Notice that the scripture says- "CHRIST IS ALL." Jesus also said- Rev 1:17 "I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead..." So here we have Jesus Himself refuting the false interpretation that He is "merely" the "Second Person in the Trinity" as Trinitarians claim.

Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil YOU through philosophy and vain deceit, AFTER THE TRADITION OF MEN, after the rudiments of the world, AND NOT AFTER CHRIST. 9 For IN HIM dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all..."

((What about John 1:1?))

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

As you have stated- "Now, Who is 'The Word'? John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." THIS IS OBVIOUSLY REFERRING TO JESUS.

So then, let's interpret John 1:1, and USE THE NAME WE ARE COMMANDED TO BELIEVE IN!!!

John 1:1 "In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with God, and (Jesus) was God."

So now, who is "God" that is in John 1:1? He is Jesus!

But, what about 1 Corinthians 8?-

1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER..."

OK, let's interpret John 1:1, again, using scripture to interpret scripture-

John 1:1 "In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with (GOD, THE FATHER), and (Jesus) was (GOD, THE FATHER)."

Where is a Trinity of persons then? And where is the contention over complete Oneness and Fullness in Christ? For Jesus testified, and revealed of Himself this very same thing- Rev 22:13 "I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, the beginning and the end, THE FIRST AND THE LAST (NOT SECOND PERSON!)...I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM THE ROOT (Father) AND THE OFFSPRING (Son) of David..."

Rev 21:6 "AND HE SAID unto me, It is done. I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I WILL BE HIS GOD, and he shall be MY SON."!!!

Now- watch what happens to John 1:1 if we say that "God" is a "Trinity" of persons-

John 1:1 "In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with (The Trinity), AND (JESUS) WAS (The Trinity)."

Again, where are separations of persons here?

So you see, if we USE SCRIPTURE TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we can only come to ONE conclusion. Namely that-

1 Cor. 12:11 "ALL these worketh that ONE and the SELFSAME Spirit..."

Phi 1:19 "...the Spirit of Jesus Christ"

Col. 3:11 "...CHRIST IS ALL..."

Colossians 2:10 "And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM..."

((Why did Jesus differentiate between Himself and the Father, for example John 8:26-27?))

"I have many things to say and to judge of you: but HE THAT SENT ME is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. John 8:27 "They understood not that he spake to them OF THE FATHER."

I didn't say Jesus didn't differentiate. The question is, what is the meaning or DEFINITION of the differences AS SPECIFICALLY, EXPLICITLY SCRIPTURALLY STATED?

1 Cor. 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but THE SAME Spirit. 5 And there are DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATIONS, but THE SAME Lord. 6 And there are DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, but it is THE SAME God which worketh all in all... 11 But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as he will."

If these differences are "separate persons" why did not Paul say so? Why did not the church recognize this until hundreds of years AFTER THE APOSTLES?

"When one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century... From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th century invention. In a sense this is true... The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title 'the Trinitarian dogma'"-The New Catholic Encyclopedia pgs. 295-305.

Like it or not, it was not with Jesus or the apostles that the Trinity doctrine entered the church. It was by pagan philosophers attempting to COMPROMISE their pagan beliefs with Christianity-

"The Holy Trinity- the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity... The question as to how to reconcile the encounter with God in this threefold figure (The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit) with faith in THE ONENESS OF GOD, which **WAS** THE JEWS' AND CHRISTIANS' CHARACTERISTIC MARK OF DISTINCTION over against paganism, agitated the piety of ancient Christendom in the deepest way... This question was ANSWERED IN THE NEOPLATONIC METAPHYSICS of being... CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY TOOK THE NEOPLATONIC METAPHYSICS of substance as well as its doctrine of hypostasis as THE DEPARTURE POINT for interpreting the relationship of the 'Father' to the 'Son'..." -Encyclopedia Britannica, 1974, 15th edition, vol. 4, page 485.

((How about Eph. 3:9, etc.?))

Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things BY Jesus Christ"

Does the Bible EXPLICITLY SAY a "Trinity" created?

Isaiah 41:20 That they may SEE, and KNOW, and CONSIDER, and UNDERSTAND together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel HATH CREATED IT."

Who IS the Holy One?

Act 2:27 "...Thine Holy One... 32 This Jesus..."

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF..."

And who is this Lord?

Isaiah 54:5 "For THY MAKER IS THINE HUSBAND; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer THE HOLY ONE of Israel..."

2 Cor. 11:2 "...For I have espoused you TO ONE husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin TO CHRIST."

Act 9:5 "And he said, Who art thou, Lord? AND THE LORD SAID, I AM JESUS whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

((Who did Jesus pray to in the garden of Gethsemene?))

Would you have one God here praying to ANOTHER GOD? Can God pray to God? WAS Jesus NOT Omnipotent, and therefore needed to pray for Himself? I think you'll agree with me that the answer is NO to these questions, right?

So let's ask the more pertinent question- WHY did Jesus pray?

First off, He came to fulfill and obey the law-

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but TO FULFILL" -Matthew 5:17.

He could not have FULFILLED the law, if He had not kept the law. The law said-

"O thou that hearest PRAYER, UNTO THEE shall ALL FLESH come" -Psalm 65:2.

"...As CONCERNING THE FLESH CHRIST CAME, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen" -Romans 9:5.

"And the Word WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us..." -John 1:14.

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come IN THE FLESH is not of God..." -1 John 4:3.

FOR WHOM then, did Jesus pray?

"...I HAVE GIVEN YOU AN EXAMPLE, THAT YE SHOULD DO AS I HAVE DONE..." -John 13:15.

"And He said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross daily, and follow me" -Luke 9:23.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who...made Himself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, HE HUMBLED HIMSELF and became obedient unto death..." -Philippians 2:5-8.

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow..." -1 Peter 2:21.

Now, let me ask you this- How else could Jesus have exemplified how to pray, without teaching us to pray to our own selves?

Jesus was both God, and man. Not part God, and part man. But fully God, and fully man. It was not the deity of Christ that prayed- it was the man. He thereby set an example, in the flesh, of how we are to pray, without praying to ourselves.

((When Jesus was 13 did he not rebuke his parents saying. " I am about my FATHERS business"))

We must consider the CONTEXT of this statement! :-)

Is God a man? Did GOD begin as a boy, and grow into a man?

Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

And yet-

Luke 2:52 "...Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."

Are these contradictory? Only if they are taken out of context. It was the humanity (flesh) that grew in stature, and it is deity that is the same yesterday, and to day, and forever. For-

Rev 22:13 "...I JESUS... testify unto you these things... I AM THE ROOT (One God, the Father) AND THE OFFSPRING (begotten Son in the flesh)..."

((We are supposed to worship the Father, Believe in the Son and receive the Holy Spirit.))

Where is that stated? How is that stated? Does it SPECIFICALLY STATE THREE PERSONS, OR NOT?

Because THE COMMANDMENT STATES:

Mar 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, THE FIRST OF ALL THE COMMANDMENTS is, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD"

Again, let's use scripture to interpret scripture, since we know by scripture who these are-

1 Cor. 8:6 "...To us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER... and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST."

Therefore, the FIRST COMMANDMENT OF ALL, becomes-

Mark 12:29 "THE FIRST OF ALL THE COMMANDMENTS is... THE (one) LORD (Jesus Christ) OUR (one) GOD (the Father) IS ONE LORD (Jesus Christ)."

Or in other words- "(Jesus Christ) OUR GOD (the Father) IS ONE (Jesus Christ)."

1 John 3:23 "And THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, That we should BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

Gal 3:20 "Now... God is one."

And...

Col 3:11 "Christ is all..."

Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all..."

God Bless, in the precious name of Jesus Christ.

by TomR.

Please continue with the real conversations on the subject of Oneness vs. Trinity.

Why Different Manifestations

Different Persons in the body of Christ

Scriptural Definitions

Definition of Oneness Pentecostal

Satan's Greatest Hoax (226 Questions Disproving the Trinitarian Doctrine)

Return to the preface for the studies on the doctrine of the Oneness of God in the name of Jesus Christ.