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Real Conversations On TheOneness of God vs. TrinityDifferent persons in the body of Christ? ((If a group of Christians, like a body, becomes "one in Christ" they are none-the-less separate people.)) This comes from 1 Cor. chap. 12, so let's look at that passage in context. First off, notice how in the first part Paul is specifically addressing Who this Spirit/God is that was working in these ex-heathens. Notice especially how, and where Paul SPECIFICALLY says- "one and the selfsame Spirit"- 1 Cor. 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But THE MANIFESTATION OF the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given BY THE SPIRIT the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge BY THE SAME SPIRIT; 9 To another faith BY THE SAME SPIRIT; to another the gifts of healing BY THE SAME SPIRIT; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For AS the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. " THEN Paul switches over and starts talking about "the body"- 1 Cor. 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For THE BODY IS NOT ONE MEMBER, BUT MANY. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?... 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body... 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. If you look at the passages in this context, you will notice that God is in the body SPECIFICALLY as "one and the selfsame Spirit." (Remember, I've already quoted before the scriptures that say it was God (the Father) who set in prophets 1 Cor. 12:18,28, and Jesus is the one who sets in prophets- Eph 4:7 "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of THE GIFT OF CHRIST... 10 He that descended IS THE SAME ALSO THAT... 11 ...gave... prophets..." Yet 1 Cor. 12:11 says these are all- "one and the selfsame Spirit"). But, when THE BODY PARTS are examined, they are not "separate persons" in the godhead, they are merely separate working "members" of the physical body. For example, your fingers, and your toes, and your eyes are not "separate persons" from you. This is because "WE" the "BODY" of Christ, are not "Separate Persons" of Christ (God), we are merely "members" of the PHYSICAL body through whom He works. The "head" of this body is Christ. There is an important concept to be found in WHY the working members of the body are not "Separate Persons" of Christ, but separate operations and administrations. While you read the scriptures below, ask yourself- is it a good thing that there are divisions of personalities in the "body" or not?- 1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye BE PERFECTLY JOINED together IN THE SAME MIND and in the same judgment. 11 FOR IT HATH BEEN DECLARED UNTO ME OF YOU... THAT THERE ARE CONTENTIONS AMONG YOU. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 IS CHRIST DIVIDED? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" 1 Cor 2:16 For... WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST. 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For YE ARE YET CARNAL: FOR WHEREAS THERE IS AMONG YOU... DIVISIONS, ARE YE NOT CARNAL, AND WALK AS MEN? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" 1 Cor. 11:17 "Now... I praise you not... 18 For first of all... I hear THAT THERE BE DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; and I partly believe it. 19 For THERE MUST BE ALSO HERESIES AMONG YOU..." You used the separation of persons in the "body" to attempt to "prove" a separation of persons in the godhead. Now imagine all your fingers, toes, and eyes being separate persons, and what have you got? A SCHIZOPHRENIC! And that is what viewing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as "Separate Persons" makes God out to be- a schizophrenic monstrosity with three heads. "What we mean by Divine Trinity is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead, each one having His own personal spirit BODY, personal SOUL, and personal SPIRIT in the same sense EACH human being... has HIS OWN body, soul, and spirit... " (from an old tract called "The Error of the 'Jesus Only' Doctrine" by Jimmy Swaggart, from the days when he was an accepted Trinitarian minister). I am made in God's image, and I am not a schizophrenic (and I do not feel I am alone in this). Nor do I worship a SCHIZOPHRENIC God! I hope you can see this is what this satanic device has caused in the minds of men. This polytheism opens the door to the exultation, and deification of man. After all, it may be reasoned one step further from such an analogy, based in human reasoning, that since separate people make up Christ's body, and they are the body of Christ- aren't they also then just other "Separate Persons" of God? I sure do hope you can see the evil nature in that. ((When a man and woman marry, they become "one flesh". They are still two people.)) Again- Look at the context of the passage- Eph. 5:31 "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I SPEAK CONCERNING CHRIST AND THE CHURCH. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even AS himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband." So then, the example you have given was NOT AT ALL written "concerning" the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost whom the Bible has already SPECIFICALLY stated to be "one and the selfsame Spirit." This passage was written SPECIFICALLY "concerning Christ and the Church" that the two are become one flesh. In other words, you have taken this verse out of context, and attempted to make it say something it does not say, to prove a point contrary to something THE BIBLE HAS SPECIFICALLY REFUTED ELSEWHERE. This is not good. In the Bible it is called- Mark 7:13 "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered..." Mark 7:7 "Howbeit IN VAIN (for nothing, no profit or purpose) do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For LAYING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT of God, ye hold the tradition of men... and many other such like things ye do. 9...FULL WELL YE REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, THAT YE MAY KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION." Do you see this? Do you see the error in this type of Biblical interpretation from a scriptural standpoint? I agree with this statement here. I don't know where I've done this, but I apologize if I've given the impression that I believe these things can be understood by rationalizing them. Matt 16:16 "Peter... said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, but my Father which is in heaven." SO HOW COME SO MANY CARNAL "CHRISTIAN" SECTS AND DIVISIONS SO EASILY SEE "SEPARATE PERSONS" IN THE GODHEAD? It has to be PRECISELY because the Trinity is NOT the product of any SPIRITUAL revelation, but the product of human philosophical reasoning on the subject (as I have quoted Trinitarians as admitting!) So why would any professing "Christian" feel so moved to want to defend such an earthly minded philosophy as we are seeing here? So why don't you try letting go of your human reasoning and- "Use the force, Luke, USE THE FORCE"! :-) What does the Bible say about this? Colossians 1:26 "Even the mystery which hath been HID FROM AGES AND FROM GENERATIONS, but now is MADE MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS: 27 TO WHOM God would MAKE KNOWN WHAT IS the riches of the glory of THIS MYSTERY among the Gentiles; WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU..." Now, do you see that? The mystery that has been revealed "TO HIS SAINTS," but not to the world- is Christ in us. The Holy Spirit that is IN HIS SAINTS is NOT a "Separate Person" from Jesus Christ. It is only NATURAL for the human mind to come to the conclusion that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are Separate Persons, but it takes a Spiritual revelation to understand JESUS CHRIST (not some other person) IN US (His Saints). But I can't just tell you- "Oh, go figure it out yourself," you know- 2 Cor. 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." 1 Peter 3:15 "...And be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..." Rom 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" Simply because there is NO PURPOSE stated in scripture for being baptized into the Father, or Spirit who didn't die. Only by being baptized INTO Jesus Christ are there any RESULTS- Rom. 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized INTO Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" It also is making the commandments of God of none effect by the traditions of men. If saying the words stated in Matthew 28:19 was how the commandment was to be applied, then the apostles broke, and never kept that commandment, making them transgressors, and the whole Bible, which was written through them, suspect. Obviously, I don't believe that. Trinitarians are the offspring of murderers- I have shown (in Just to Set The Record Straight) how that-"This (Trinity doctrine of separation of persons in one substance)- "let loose a fury among mankind that has rarely been paralleled. Millions suffered violence or death in the pursuant wars and persecutions. Hundreds of bishops were exiled or murdered at the command of other bishops who, when the tide turned, visited the same treatment upon their rivals." The Story of Christian Origins, M.A. Larson, New Republic Book, p 572. It is interesting to note that, historically speaking, Trinitarians identify with those pagan-philosophers who introduced the idea of Trinity into the church specifically as the "early church fathers." Why do they not call the apostles the "Fathers of the church?" This is a true enigma to me, but the "Early church Fathers" historically designates those that came after the apostles, such as those just spoken of above by Larson. And Jesus says- Mat 23:31 "Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that YE ARE THE CHILDREN OF THEM which killed the prophets." Act 7:52 "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the JUST ONE; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers" Do you really not see that justifying the doctrine that let loose a fury of murder, justifies the men by whom the fury was loosed, making one a partaker of the other's evil deeds? The Trinity doctrine joins people to that family, not the family of God in Christ. Trinitarians are called liars by God's word- All this time, I have asked- show me the scripture that specifically says "God is a Trinity of Separate Persons"? And I have shown all the words that have been added to man's traditions in order to formulate the doctrine. And the Bible says- Prov 30:5 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 ADD THOU NOT UNTO HIS WORDS, LEST he reprove thee, and THOU BE FOUND A LIAR." Is being found a liar really NOT evil enough in itself to shun the doctrine of the Trinity? The Trinitarian doctrine nullifies the commandments of God- Laying aside the commandment of God- Mar 12:29 "The first of all the commandments is... The Lord our God is one Lord" for Gal 3:20 "God is one" and Col 3:11 "Christ is all" Col 2:10 "And ye are complete in him" Trinitarians hold the tradition of men- "In the unity of the Godhead there are three persons... the Trinity" R. Bowman, CRI. Making the commandments of God of none effect by your tradition... (Mark 7:8, 13) The Trinitarian doctrine causes God's people to commit spiritual whoredom- I have shown that the doctrine of the Trinity comes from Babylon- "THE ANCIENT BABYLONIANS... RECOGNIZED IN WORDS THE UNITY of the Godhead; and... IN THE UNITY OF THAT ONE ONLY GOD OF THE BABYLONIANS, THERE WERE THREE PERSONS... THE RECOGNITION OF A TRINITY WAS UNIVERSAL IN ALL THE ANCIENT NATIONS OF THE WORLD..." -The Two Babylons, chapter 2, by Rev. A. Hislop. About this God says- Deut 6:14 "YE SHALL NOT GO AFTER OTHER GODS, of the gods of the people which are round about you" Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: 15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and THEY GO A WHORING AFTER THEIR GODS..." The Trinity doctrine corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ through the subtilty of Satan- 2 Cor. 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. Trinitarians themselves admit- "...It is possible to call Jesus God and still have another Jesus (2 Cor. 11:4), if in calling Him God one means something significantly different from what the Bible means... It is doubtful that any heretic... has ever admitted to denying the Son. Instead, HERETICS OF ALL KINDS HAVE SIMPLY REDEFINED THE MEANING OF THE TERM SON..." A Trinitarian RE-definition of Christ- "...What the Bible means... when the Bible says that Jesus is God, it means that He exists eternally as a divine person in relationship with the Father... it means that He is the second person of a triune God" -Ralph Bowman, Christian Research International. Defined- "I Jesus...I am... the FIRST AND THE LAST..." -Revelation 22:13-16. REDEFINED- "He is the second person of a triune God" -Bowman. Trinitarians are reprobate, deceivers, and anti-Christ- 2 Cor. 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus CHRIST IS IN YOU, EXCEPT YE BE REPROBATES?" "From heaven Jesus still exercises lordship over us, but, NOT BEING physically (i.e. in the flesh-TomR) WITH US NOW, He transmits His directions by means of the Holy Spirit..." Dr. Billy Graham, The Holy Spirit, pg 5. 2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, WHO CONFESS NOT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH. THIS IS A DECEIVER AND AN ANTICHRIST." A question to the Trinitarians out there- If Jesus Christ is in His saints, but the Spirit in you is a separate person from Jesus Christ, WHO IS IT THAT IS IN YOU? "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-christ" -2 John 7. According to George Ricker Berry's Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, 2 John 7 literally reads, in the original Greek- "...Those who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh- this is the deceiver and the anti-christ". For comparison's sake, the Greek word "erkomenouz - coming" here in 2 John 7, is the same word and form as "coming" in Matt. 16:28. The word used in 1 John 4:2 & 3 is "eleluthota - is come" being a present tense form of the word "eltho - to come" and not a past tense form such as "elthon - came", used in Matt. 8:2, nor a future tense form as "eleuoetai - will come", in Acts 1:11. 1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come (present tense) in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist..." Now, let me ask you, or anyone else who would still think it is very important to defend the Trinity doctrine- WHAT EVIL IS THERE, SCRIPTURALLY, IN LIFTING UP THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST ABOVE ALL NAMES? John 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up." John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 HE SHALL GLORIFY ME: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine..." What evil is there in uncompromisingly defending and obeying the first commandment of Jesus Christ? Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" 1 John 2:3 "And HEREBY WE DO KNOW that we know him, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth (Jesus Christ) is not in him. 1 John 5:20 "And WE KNOW that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son JESUS CHRIST. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD, AND ETERNAL LIFE. 21 Little children, KEEP YOURSELVES FROM IDOLS (falsehoods). Amen. John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE (see above): no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, HAVE I BEEN SO LONG TIME WITH YOU, AND YET HAST THOU NOT KNOWN ME, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" God Bless! by TomR. Please continue with the real conversations on the subject of Oneness vs. Trinity. Definition of Oneness Pentecostal Satan's Greatest Hoax (226 Questions Disproving the Trinitarian Doctrine) Return to the preface for the studies on the doctrine of the Oneness of God in the name of Jesus Christ. |