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Real Conversations On TheOneness of God vs. TrinityWhy different Manifestations ((I was NOT attempting to say that one God would be unable to appear in three different manifestations if he wished.)) I believe that you know God CAN appear in different manifestations at once. That is exactly why I countered that way- because I hoped that would hold validity with you. What I wanted to show you was that was what He was doing there, nothing else. ((I don't understand, however, WHY he would do such a thing. I realize that God's ways are higher than our ways and that we cannot hope to always see his motives, but I also know that God is not the author of confusion. If you were present at Jesus' baptism and you witnessed it as it is described in the Bible, would you not think that there were multiple entities involved?)) Ask yourself this- would a true Hebrew think that he was seeing multiple persons, or merely multiple manifestations? Isa 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD,... THAT YE MAY KNOW and BELIEVE me, AND UNDERSTAND that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." The Jewish religion is probably the purest form of Monotheism in the world- why would they see Separate Persons? Nor do I see multiple entities. Nor did the apostles express that they perceived the manifestations to be multiple entities. My point throughout this thread (and others) has been that- THE SEED OF THE PERCEPTION of "multiple entities" was planted (fathered) by heathen paganism stemming from Babylon- NOT by scripture, NOR by the God of the Bible. Next you ask a MOST EXCELLENT question- You said it, now, let's see if you understand it! :-) The Bible likens receiving the Holy Ghost to the receiving of the law in the Old Testament. One main difference in the NT is that it is for each individual, personally, rather than collectively for the nation Israel. In a previous post I showed how the same elements that were present in the Old Testament, were also present in Acts 2:1-4. Namely- A) God drew the people together, B) There was a physical commotion, C) Fire was present, D) God's words are heard, E) The Lord made Himself present, and wrote His law (onto the tablets in the O.T. and on the heart in the New- 2 Cor. 3:3, 7-9). The main point was that, when one receives the gift of the Holy Ghost- God bears witness with signs following. Specific signs. Keeping your statement in mind (God putting on a show), remember that Jesus is/was "the firstborn among many brethren." -Rom. 8:30. Now look at 1 John 5:5-11- 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water (water baptism) only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. You yourself understand that baptism is necessary. Why? Because Jesus commanded it, but also because of this- Mat 3:15 "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now (baptism): for THUS IT BECOMETH US TO FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS..." Jesus was our example, was He not? Read on then, in 1 John- 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three ARE one. 1 John 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three AGREE in one. 1 John 5:9 "If we receive the witness of men, THE WITNESS OF GOD IS GREATER: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son." God did not expect the Jews to take John the Baptist's word (the witness of a man) that Jesus was the Son of God- God Himself bore witness of the fact. And how did He do so? They heard the voice from heaven, and they saw (perceived) the Spirit (God) descending. Keep in mind, that Jesus was the firstborn- He was setting the example for us- 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God HATH THE WITNESS IN HIMSELF: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because HE BELIEVETH NOT THE RECORD that GOD GAVE of his Son. "Hath the witness in Himself" can not mean some man said- "say this prayer, and you are saved." That would be only the witness of man, and not the witness of God! It would be counter to the example that Jesus set as the firstborn of many brethren- born of God by the Spirit with signs manifested- God putting on a show! John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 THE WIND BLOWETH where it listeth, and THOU HEAREST THE SOUND THEREOF, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT." By this verse we know that God is going to voice a sound whereby man will know that he "Hath the witness in Himself" "Not the witness of man" but "the witness of God" For "If we receive THE WITNESS OF MEN, the witness of God is greater: FOR THIS IS THE WITNESS OF GOD WHICH HE HATH TESTIFIED OF HIS SON." In fact, John goes on to say- 1 John 5:10 "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT GOD HATH MADE HIM A LIAR; BECAUSE HE BELIEVETH NOT THE RECORD THAT GOD GAVE OF HIS SON. You better believe you need to be baptized with the Holy Ghost as manifested also with other speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance- the words (witness) of God spoken through man! Act 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and SO IS ALSO THE HOLY GHOST, whom GOD HATH GIVEN TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM." Act 10:45 "...On the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 FOR THEY HEARD THEM SPEAK WITH TONGUES, AND MAGNIFY GOD. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Do you see then how the Holy Ghost, received with the sign of other tongues AS THE SPIRIT GIVES THE UTTERANCE is the witness of God? And those that DO NOT RECEIVE THE WITNESS OF GOD HAVE MADE GOD A LIAR- "BECAUSE HE BELIEVETH NOT THE RECORD THAT GOD GAVE OF HIS SON." The same elements that PROVED that Jesus was the Son of God PROVE that those who receive the Holy Ghost as in Acts 2:1-4 ARE OF GOD, AND ARE THE TRUE BELIEVERS! 1 John 5:11 "And THIS IS THE RECORD, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." And what is that record, but the witness of the inheritance- Eph 1:13 In whom YE ALSO TRUSTED, AFTER THAT YE HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom ALSO AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that Holy Spirit of PROMISE, 14 WHICH IS THE EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession" Rom 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth (makes alive!)" Do you see this?- "THIS IS THE RECORD, that God hath given to us eternal life" God DOES put on a show (so to speak), that we may KNOW that we also are the sons of God, just as Jesus- our firstborn brother! Act 10:45 "...On the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 FOR THEY HEARD THEM SPEAK WITH TONGUES... 11:15 ...as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, AS ON US AT THE BEGINNING (i.e. same as Acts 2:1-4!). 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST. 17 Forasmuch then as GOD GAVE THEM THE LIKE GIFT AS HE DID UNTO US, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, THEN HATH GOD ALSO TO THE GENTILES GRANTED REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE." WHY? Because- "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself" for "the witness of God is greater: FOR THIS IS THE WITNESS OF GOD WHICH HE HATH TESTIFIED OF HIS SON." Jesus wasn't half-man/half-God. He was wholly man, and wholly God. He had a complete humanity, otherwise, He could not have been tempted of sin. Heb 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." God Bless In Jesus Name! by TomR Please continue with the real conversations on the subject of Oneness vs. Trinity. Different Persons in the body of Christ Definition of Oneness Pentecostal Satan's Greatest Hoax (226 Questions Disproving the Trinitarian Doctrine) Return to the preface for the studies on the doctrine of the Oneness of God in the name of Jesus Christ. |