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Real Conversations On TheOneness of God vs. TrinityIs the Trinity evil? ((First, a question about the evilness of the Trinity doctrine. How so ?)) Did you get a chance to read the post I referred you to called "Just to set the Record Straight"? I know it (and this last one to you) were long, and I don't at all hold it against you if you didn't have the time. My point- the evil of the Trinity can be seen in the fruit it has born since it's introduction into the church (circa 325 A.D.). Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Secondly, there can be no unity of the faith under a Trinity doctrine. This is due to the fact that there is no definition of the Trinity in scripture. 1 Cor. 11:18 "I hear THAT THERE BE DIVISIONS among you... 19 THERE MUST BE ALSO HERESIES among you..." Thirdly, the Trinity doctrine must ADD TO the Bible. Proverbs 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." All of the following words and/or phrases are not found in scripture, but some at least are REQUIRED in order to even begin to formulate the Trinity doctrine- Trinity, Holy Trinity, Divine Trinity, Triune, Three-in-one, Three-of-one, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, Separate Persons, Separate Egos, Separate Individuals, Divine Plurality, Divine Individuality, Divine Unity, Mystery Above Reason, etc. Think about this. Before pagan philosophy merged with Christianity, the above Trinitarian words and phrases WERE NOT USED OR KNOWN by the original church. If a person believes the Bible is complete (2 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture is given... 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all...") then they should reject the Trinity doctrine on the simple fact of it's being extra-Biblical, and therefore non-scriptural! I'm not making this up. Trinitarians admit this- "The doctrine of the Trinity itself, however, is NOT A BIBLICAL DOCTRINE... It is the product of theological reflection upon the problem... The ecclesiastical doctrine of the Trinity is not only the product of genuine Biblical thought, it is also THE PRODUCT OF PHILOSOPHICAL SPECULATION, which is REMOTE FROM THE BIBLE." -The Christian Doctrine of God, by Emil Brunner. "When one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century... From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th century invention. In a sense this is true... The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title 'the Trinitarian dogma'." -The New Catholic Encyclopedia. "The Bible does not explain to us how the three Persons are one God." -Essential Christianity, by Dr. Walter Martin, Regal Book. Fourth and most importantly Jesus said- John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins." 2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." Preaching that Jesus is only the second member of the Trinity is to redefine and belittle Jesus and be worshipping a false (idolatrous) Christ. There is no God higher, and no other saviour than Jesus Christ Himself, the Great I AM. Was there a separation in persons concerning the sacrifice Christ made? ((This question concerns the sacrifice Christ made... If there is one personage there is no separation.)) This is another example of "philosophizing." The scripture does not teach that "God" or "God-the-Son" died. It was the humanity only of Christ that died- "For since by man came death, BY MAN came also the resurrection of the dead" 1 Corinthians 15:21. "Wherefore when He cometh into the world, He saith... A BODY hast thou prepared me... We are sanctified THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY of Jesus Christ... THIS MAN... offered one sacrifice for sins... For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" Hebrews 10:5-14.p Here's some scriptural descriptions of Jesus- 1 Timothy 3:16 "...GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." It is amazing to me that some people claim to understand and accept that Jesus was fully God and fully man, but when the man is seen doing something only a man can do, i.e. die, this "humanity" is "philosophized" as a "Separate Person" from God-the Eternal-Spirit who cannot die. When Jesus died, it is no controversy that He took upon Him the sins of the world (1 Pet. 2:24). The above scriptures from 1 Cor. and Heb. SPECIFICALLY say it was the HUMANITY that died, NOT Christ's deity (the One God). The reason Deity had to forsake the humanity is because God cannot dwell where there is sin- I.e.- Isaiah 59:1 "Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE from you, that he will not hear." What about the prophesies of Jesus? ((Then there are the prophesies of Jesus all the way back to Isaiah, Ezekiel,etc.)) Romans 4:17 "...God... calleth those things WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH they were." Acts 13:32 "And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that THE PROMISE WHICH WAS MADE unto the fathers, 33 GOD HATH FULFILLED THE SAME UNTO US their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee." Luke 2:11 "For unto you is born THIS DAY in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." Just as the purpose for "the Son," had a definite beginning, He also has an ending- 1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." So, if Jesus is a "Separate Person" from God the Father, how come He had a certain day in which He was begotten, and a time when He will be brought under subjection? But, when scripture is brought to bear, and we see that Christ is both God AND man, we see it is Christ's humanity that was begotten on a certain day, and His humanity that will be brought into subjection. Otherwise, Jesus, if He is a "Separate Person" is not the eternal One He claims to be in Revelation 1:8, 17-18. Is Oneness consistent with all the passages talking about different personalities? ((Oneness seems inconsistent with all passages talking about different personalities. John 3:16, Matt 28:18 (who gave Christ the authority); Matt 27:46 (separation); Jn 5:31-32 (witness)..)) Again my first response is- SHOW ME SCRIPTURE THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THESE ARE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES! I cannot stress that statement strong enough. You say it "seems" inconsistent with all passages but THERE ARE NO STATEMENTS IN THE BIBLE SPECIFICALLY SAYING THAT THE FATHER SON AND HOLY GHOST ARE SEPARATE PERSONS. (Please forgive me, I'm not shouting, just emphasizing, OK?) One of my favorite examples is prophecy. Which of the manifestations or "Separate Persons" by your reckoning, gives the gift/calling of prophecy? "...God set... in the church... prophets..." -1 Corinthians 12:18,28. "...Christ... gave gifts unto men... He... IS THE SAME ALSO THAT... GAVE SOME... PROPHETS..." -Ephesians 4:7-11. "For to one is given BY THE SPIRIT... PROPHECY... But all these worketh that ONE AND THE SELFSAME Spirit..." -1 Corinthians 12:8-11. "God is a Spirit..." -John 4:24. "Now the Lord is that Spirit..." -2 Corinthians 3:17. "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all" -1 Corinthians 12:4-6. You see there. No separation of persons is mentioned here or elsewhere in the Bible. One must begin philosophizing outside of Biblical revelation in order to conceive of a separation of persons in the Godhead. If you were to rely STRICTLY ON BIBLICALLY STATED DEFINITIONS, the above scriptures typify what you would come up with. If you were born on an island, and had never heard the words Trinity, or three persons, but were determined to rely solely on scripture, you would not think in terms of Trinity or three persons because the Bible has so adamantly ingrained- GOD IS ONE! The only DIFFERENCES offered in scripture are differences in administrations, operations, and manifestations. But never persons. Shouldn't I accept the Trinity on faith, the same as creation? ((I have to take the physical aspects of this on faith- same as creation.)) Wait a minute, no you don't! The Bible specifically tells us to believe in the creation by faith. Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Where does the Bible specifically say to believe that the Godhead is three persons? Mark 12:29 "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD." That's a commandment of God, not a tradition, and not a philosophy! ; The Lord OUR GOD IS ONE Lord. Why don't you consider believing that "on faith- same as creation"?! Please continue with the real conversations on the subject of Oneness vs. Trinity. Different Persons in the body of Christ Definition of Oneness Pentecostal Satan's Greatest Hoax (226 Questions Disproving the Trinitarian Doctrine) Return to the preface for the studies on the doctrine of the Oneness of God in the name of Jesus Christ. |