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Real Conversations On TheOneness of God vs. TrinityPoint of Departure ((Our Point of Departure seems to be the existence of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Accounting for all three lends credibility to Matt. 28:19 . Am I reading correctly ?)) Interesting that you should use the phrase "POINT OF DEPARTURE" in reference to your belief in three Gods as compared to belief in the Oneness of God in Christ Jesus... First off, the phrases "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" are not biblical phrases. They are additions to the word of God that are warned against in the Bible. Pro 30:6 "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Rev 22:18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words (logos- words, thoughts, ideas) of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" So, you believe in a Trinity of Gods. You're not alone. In case you're not aware of some of those who do, allow me to introduce you to a segment of the family tree of your spiritual ancestry... :-) "The Holy Trinity- the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity... The question as to how to reconcile the encounter with God in this threefold figure (The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit) with faith in **THE ONENESS OF GOD, which WAS THE JEWS' AND CHRISTIANS' CHARACTERISTIC MARK OF DISTINCTION** over against paganism, agitated the piety of ancient Christendom in the deepest way... Christ as the Logos, UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF NEOPLATONIC PHILOSOPHY, BECAME the subject of a speculative theology... This question was answered through the Neoplatonic metaphysics of being... In Neoplatonic philosophy both the nous and the idea of the world are designated the hypostases (essences, or natures) of the transcendent God. Christian theology took the Neoplatonic metaphysics of substance as well as its doctrine of hypostases as THE DEPARTURE POINT FOR INTERPRETING THE RELATIONSHIP of the 'Father' to the 'Son' in terms of the Neoplatonic hypostases doctrine... The Neoplatonic concept of substance... was foreign to the New Testament itself... The dispute on the basis of the metaphysics of substance... LED TO CONCEPTS THAT HAVE NO FOUNDATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT." -Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th edition, 1984, Vol. 4, page 485. "It is a well confirmed historical fact that beginning in about 130 A.D. many of the Church Fathers- the Apologists- were converts from paganism and trained pagan philosophers. These included Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165), Tatian (ca. 200) and Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 160-200). Indeed their knowledge of the Old Testament came through their readings of the PHILOSOPHER Philo. Tertullian EXPLICITLY EMPLOYED written works of PAGAN PHILOSOPHERS in support of his Christian philosophy (De Test. Animae I). Such fathers as Justin Martyr (Apol. I, 4, 5, 7, 20) and Athenagoras (ca. 177) (Supplic. 5, 6), in order to defend Christianity, stated that THEY WERE FOLLOWING SOME OF THE PRACTICES ADVOCATED BY THE BEST OF THE PAGAN PHILOSOPHERS. Clement of Alexandria (ca. 150-215) actually undertook to create a new Christian philosophy he termed the 'true philosophy' (Strom. II, 11)." - Robert A. Hermann, "Oneness, The Trinity, And Logic", pg 18. William B. Chalfant, "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pg 116-117: 'Indeed, Numenius of Apamea (fl. c. 175 A.D.), a Syrian pagan philosopher, and one of great influence upon the Alexandrian Trinitarians, BOASTED THAT HE HAD GONE BACK 'TO the fountainhead of PLATO, SOCRATES AND PYTHAGORAS, to the ancient traditions of the Brahmins, Magi, Egyptians and Jews, AND HAD RESTORED to the schools the forgotten doctrine of THREE GODS'. Bigg calls Numenius the founder (along with the Catholic Clement of Alexandria) of Neo-Platonism. (Chalfant here quotes Charles Bigg, from "The Christian Platonists of Alexandria" Oxford at Clarendon Press, 1913, page 251-252.) "...The rejection of Modalism (oneness) and the recognition of Christ as the Logos forced upon the West the necessity of rising FROM FAITH TO A PHILOSOPHICAL AND, IN FACT, A DISTINCTIVELY NEOPLATONIC DOGMATIC." -Adolph Harnack, "History of Dogma 3" as quoted by William B. Chalfant, in "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pgs. 121-122. "...AUGUSTINE found his ultimate demonstration of the TRINITY IN PAGAN PHILOSOPHY... like Origen... based his reasoning on the metaphysics of PLATO, WHO DECLARED THAT MAN IS A TRICHOTOMY consisting of body, mind, soul. Using this as A POINT OF DEPARTURE, Augustine found it a reflection of the trinal unity of the godhead." -William B. Chalfant, quoting Larson, in "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pg 123. "It is not difficult to understand why his opponents asserted that Augustine had never ceased to be a Manichee. HIS SYSTEM IS IN TRUTH THAT OF THE GNOSTICS, the ancestors of the Manichees." William B. Chalfant, "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pg 124 (Chalfant here quotes Charles Bigg, from "The Christian Platonists of Alexandria" Oxford at Clarendon Press, 1913, page 289.) "Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)- 'The deity stands in lonely self-contemplation outside the world... his intellect (nous) is the only thing through which He stands in immediate contact with it...' Plato (428-328 B.C.)- (taught that gods, by definition) 'are exalted above pleasure and pain, and are untouched of all evils.'... THUS THE TRINITARIANS MADE A FATHER, WHO WAS IMPASSABLE (i.e. incapable of suffering or feeling pain), the first person, and then a second person (whom they styled the Logos, Mind, or nous), who was passable... WHAT THE TRINITARIANS WERE SAYING WAS THAT... THEY DID NOT BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST TO BE THE ALMIGHTY GOD." The above as quoted by William B. Chalfant, in "Ancient Champions of Oneness", pg. 122. "The thing that most people do not realize is that THE IDEA OF TRINITY WAS CENTRAL TO MITHRA WORSHIP. It (Trinity) was taught in the oldest Chaldean, Egyptian, and Mithraitic schools. The Chaldean Sun-god, Mithra, was called 'Triple,' and the Trinitarian idea of the Chaldeans was a doctrine of the Akkadians, who themselves belonged to a race which was the first to conceive a metaphysical trinity." -Blavatsky, vol. 2 sec.1 page 46, as quoted from Three Persons- from the Bible? Or Babylon, by Thomas Weisser, page 26. "The Trinity doctrine... traces it's history to a rebellious extremist named Tertullian... And it is not improbable that the development of the doctrine of THE TRINITY, WHICH FORMED NO PART OF THE ORIGINAL JEWISH CHRISTIANITY, may be traced to Egyptian influence; as the whole of the OLDER EGYPTIAN THEOLOGY WAS PERMEATED WITH THE IDEA OF TRIPLE DIVINITY, as seen by both in the triads of gods which the various cities worshipped, and in the threefold names, representing three differing aspects of the same personality, under which each god might be addressed." -Joseph Crafton Milne, "A History of Egypt, pg 155. Vol. 5. as quoted in After The Way Called Heresy, by Thomas Weisser, pg 21. "The Cappodicians, theologians who reconciled the faith of Athanasius with the current philosophy, and apprehended it abstractly, did not retain his teaching pure and simple... They boldly characterized the PLURALITY OF HYPOSTASES, E.G., AS A PHASE OF TRUTH PRESERVED IN GREEK POLYTHEISM" -Adolf von Harnack, "History of Dogma", pg 142-143. "It is a solution BY HARMONIZATION, an attempt to COMBINE, as Gregory of Nyssa characterizes it, THE MONOTHEISM OF THE JEWS AND THE POLYTHEISM OF THE GREEKS. THE METHOD OF HARMONIZATION USED BY THEM WAS TO THIN DOWN THE JEWISH MONOTHEISM AS A CONCESSION TO GREEK POLYTHEISM." -Wolfson, Harry A. "The Philosophy of the Church Fathers", pg 578-579, as quoted in After The Way Called Heresy, by Thomas Weisser, page 32. "In the Trimurti, Brahma... The Lord God, though one without a second, assumes the three forms respectively of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva... though three in form, are one entity... It may, however be noted that, whereas THE TRINITY IS PRESENTED IN SCHOLASTIC PHILOSOPHY AS A MYSTERY, IT IS A FUNDAMENTAL DEFINITION OF HINDU RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY!" -Edward Rice, Eastern Definitions, pg 387. as quoted in After The Way Called Heresy, by Thomas Weisser, Page 34. "Trimurti... the Hindu Trinity of gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, conceived as an inseparable unity..." Webster's Dictionary. "THE ANCIENT BABYLONIANS, just as the modern Romans, RECOGNIZED IN WORDS THE UNITY of the Godhead; and, while worshipping innumerable minor deities... they distinctly acknowledged that there was One infinite and Almighty Creator, supreme over all... IN THE UNITY OF THAT ONE ONLY GOD OF THE BABYLONIANS, THERE WERE THREE PERSONS, and to symbolize that doctrine of the Trinity, they employed... the equilateral triangle... just as is well known the Romish Church does at this day... THE RECOGNITION OF A TRINITY WAS UNIVERSAL IN ALL THE ANCIENT NATIONS OF THE WORLD... The triune emblem of the supreme Assyrian divinity shows clearly... though blasphemously, the unity of Father, Seed, or Son, and the Holy Ghost... Will anyone after this say that the... church must still be called Christian, because it holds the doctrine of the Trinity? So did the Pagan Babylonians, so did the Egyptians, so do the Hindus at this hour..." -The Two Babylons, chapter 2, by Rev. A. Hislop. Were you aware that the doctrine of the Trinity is BY NO MEANS a distinctive feature of certain "Christian" faiths? Were you aware that ALL TRINITARIAN "Christians" MUST trace their roots, NOT directly to Christ and the apostles, but to pagan philosophers who compromised strict Biblical monotheism with pagan Trinitarianism? Surely you are aware of the scriptures warning God's people of defining Him by the doctrines, and philosophies of man? Deuteronomy 6:14 "Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you..." "And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words... BEWARE lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD bodily. And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised... Buried with Him in baptism... through faith in the operation of God..." -Colossians 2:4- 3:11. "...Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols (falsehoods). Amen" -1 John 5:20-21. "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth the a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, SAYING, LET US GO AFTER OTHER GODS, WHICH THOU HAST NOT KNOWN, AND LET US SERVE THEM; THOU SHALT NOT HEARKEN UNTO THE WORDS OF THAT PROPHET, OR THAT DREAMER OF DREAMS: FOR THE LORD YOUR GOD PROVETH YOU, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul... If thy brother... or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; NAMELY, OF THE *GODS* OF THE PEOPLE WHICH ARE ROUND ABOUT YOU, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; THOU SHALT NOT CONSENT UNTO HIM, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him..." -Deuteronomy 13:1-2. So, I have to agree with you. Separating the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost into three separate persons (which the Bible does not do) IS DEFINITELY A DEPARTURE POINT from a PURELY scriptural interpretation, which history also confirms. Remember, you still haven't given me a scripturally stated "purpose" for being baptized in the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Therefore, what profit is it? Or where in scripture is there a single COMMANDMENT to believe that God is a Trinity of separate persons? Let alone the very first commandment of all- Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, THE FIRST OF ALL THE COMMANDMENTS IS, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." 1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord AND my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas... THOU HAST BELIEVED..." God Bless. P.S. Sorry I put out so much stuff to wade through. by TomR. Please continue with the real conversations on the subject of Oneness vs. Trinity. Different Persons in the body of Christ Definition of Oneness Pentecostal Satan's Greatest Hoax (226 Questions Disproving the Trinitarian Doctrine) Return to the preface for the studies on the doctrine of the Oneness of God in the name of Jesus Christ. |