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SATAN'S GREATEST HOAX or 226 questions PROVING the doctrine of the TRINITY to be UNSCRIPTURAL! Questions 36 through 48- "That one and the selfsame Spirit... so also is Christ!" (( when you cross-reference Scriptures that show that Jesus is God, you then try to show that Jesus is the Spirit because other verses show that the Holy Spirit is God and you do the same with the Father. Do you see the fallacy in your interpretation? Your thinking runs as follows: 1. Jesus is God. 2. God is the Father 3. Therefore, Jesus is the Father. It is quite easy to do the same thing with any person of the Godhead and form your own belief. This is a logical fallacy. I can to this with apples and oranges. 1. An apple is a fruit. 2. An orange is a fruit. 3. Therefore, an apple is an orange. WRONG!)) I'm afraid you are leaving out some very KEY words in your process. "Apple is a fruit" "There is one fruit." "One and the selfsame fruit." "Now, the apple is that fruit." "Johnny apple, he is apple of all." "The first principle is the apple our fruit is one apple." Nope, I just don't see how you could stick an orange in this "thinking process" and still have one and the selfsame fruit! ((I hope you see now. But if you don't quite understand yet, I will use some more of your verses and we'll get a good look at your thinking process.)) (("God is a Spirit..." -John 4:24.)) (("There is...one Spirit..." -Ephesians 4:4)) (("One and the selfsame Spirit..." 1 Cor. 12:11)) (("Now the Lord is that Spirit..." -2 Cor. 3:17.)) (("...Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)" -Acts 10:36.)) (("THE FIRST OF ALL THE COMMANDMENTS IS, Hear, O Israel; THE LORD (JESUS) OUR GOD IS ONE LORD..." -Mark 12:29)) (("...Believe me, and understand that I am He:
before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be
after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is
no savior...Thus saith the Lord, your redeemer, the Holy
One of Israel...I AM THE LORD ((We'll stop right there for now. OK, watch, this is what you are saying: 1. God is a Spirit 2. The Lord is that Spirit 3. Jesus is the one Lord, therefore, Jesus is also the Spirit... Sorry, TomR, no matter which way you cut this deck you still come up with a fallacy - your conclusions are unsubstantial - they fall apart.)) Well sure they do if you take out the explicitly qualifying words to the process of your summary! Like "One and the selfsame"! And your logic sure hasn't proven any separation in persons, has it? But then, you admitted that, didn't you?... (( But as of yet, for both of our beliefs, they need more proof and explaining.)) ((So, back to your verses: 1 Cor. 12:4-6, 11,... I believe that you are interpreting this verse to be something that it isn't saying... You are in fact saying that in these verses the "manifestations", "operations", etc...speak of the Godhead. And supposedly in saying this it proves the "Oneness message. Well, let's look at these verses and see if you aren't just adding your "private interpretations". If we were to read these verses in their CONTEXT, we would find that the apostle Paul is EXPLICITLY NOT DEFINING THE GODHEAD in this case. In verse one, Paul tells us what he's going to talk about, "Now concerning SPIRITUAL GIFTS...")) You know, you really ought to look a little closer at your Bible, and a Greek interlinear would be a big help. In verse one, the word "gifts" is not even in the original Greek! The word that is translated as "spiritual gifts" is really just the word "pneumatikos" (spiritual matters) all by itself. Here is a brief portion of Vine's definition of "pneumatikos"- "pneumatikos (4152) "always connotes the ideas of invisibility and of power... LIT., 'SPIRITUALITIES,' 1Co 12:1 14:1; ... (i) ALL THAT IS PRODUCED AND MAINTAINED AMONG MEN BY THE OPERATIONS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS 'SPIRITUAL,' 1Co 15:46...." -Vine's Expository Dictionary. ((And since Paul would not have them ignorant, he proceeds to tell them. These gifts were manifested by the same Spirit but they in themselves were diverse... However, instead of running through each verse with you, it is plain as day to see that this is what Paul is speaking of in this whole passage. And the "THESE" in verse 11 refers again to the "GIFTS", NOT THE GODHEAD... Paul is addressing a problem within the Corinthian church - regarding the "manifestations" of the GIFTS of the Spirit. TomR, what you need here is to read the text in its context.)) First off, consider Paul's comments- 1 Cor 12:1 "But to spiritual things, brothers, I do not wish you to be ignorant. 2 You know that being led away, you Gentiles were led to dumb idols..." (The Interlinear Bible, Hendrickson Publishers) Let us keep in mind, that in 1 Cor. 12, Paul was speaking overall- A) of spiritual manifestations in general among them, NOT specifically the gifts of the spirit; B) These Gentiles previously had different gods for every possible act or action of heavenly bodies- gods for wind, for fire, for air, for crops, for blessing, for cursing, etc. They did not know one god. From their past, any action of god could have been misinterpreted as different gods. Next, Paul mentions how they may know that they are of Christ- 1 Cor 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." Then Paul mentions, not only tongues, but also all the other spiritual offices. Note that HE DOES NOT HIMSELF SPECIFY that these offices only relate to gifts, he is speaking in a broader sense than just the gifts, in talking about spiritualities, though he does include gifts- 1 Co 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is THE SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL." 1 Cor 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." 1 Cor 12:8 "For to one is given BY THE SPIRIT the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;... 10 To another the working of miracles; TO ANOTHER PROPHECY... 11 But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as he will." 2 Pe 1:21 "For... prophecy came NOT in old time BY THE WILL OF MAN: but... BY THE HOLY GHOST. Mar 13:11 "...FOR IT IS NOT YE THAT SPEAK, BUT THE HOLY GHOST. QUESTION #36) If all the gifts were given by one and the selfsame Spirit (the Holy Ghost), can the Father or Jesus give the gifts, and there still be a separation of persons in the Godhead? Why does Paul say "All these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit then, when, according to you, he should have said something like ALL the Separate Person members of the Trinity? QUESTION #37) Does God (the Father) NOT set the members, including the gift of prophets, in the church? (Look closely at the gift of prophecy in the following verses. Prophecy is a gift, a calling, and an office, v.11 "But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as HE (not they) WILL.")... 1 Cor 12:18 "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him (not them, mind you, Him!)... 28 AND GOD HATH SET SOME IN THE CHURCH, first apostles, SECONDARILY PROPHETS, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." Isa 50:4 "The Lord GOD HATH GIVEN ME THE TONGUE OF THE LEARNED, that I should know how TO SPEAK a word in season to him that is weary" Col 4:3 "Withal praying also for us, THAT GOD WOULD OPEN UNTO US A DOOR OF UTTERANCE, TO SPEAK the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds" QUESTION #38) OK, you could argue that the Holy Ghost is God, and that would be a fair argument, BUT, WHAT ABOUT JESUS? Since you believe Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be separate persons, and since "ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT," which is the Holy Ghost, does Jesus NOT give the gifts of the Spirit? Eph 4:7 "But unto every one of us is given grace ACCORDING TO THE MEASURE OF THE GIFT OF CHRIST. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and GAVE GIFTS UNTO MEN. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 HE THAT DESCENDED *IS THE SAME ALSO THAT* ASCENDED UP FAR ABOVE ALL HEAVENS, THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS.) 11 AND *HE GAVE ... PROPHETS*; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Luk 21:15 "For I (JESUS) WILL GIVE YOU A MOUTH AND WISDOM, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist." 1 Pet 1:10 "...the prophets... prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHICH WAS IN THEM DID SIGNIFY, WHEN IT TESTIFIED beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." 1 Cor 12:11 "But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as HE (not they!) will." And now, back to our walk through 1 Cor. 12, we come to the verse that shows the real error of your Trinitarian bent reasoning that the passage is only talking about the gifts. Now we come to THE MEAT OF PAUL'S MESSAGE in this whole passage, verse 12- 1 Cor 12:12 "For *AS* the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: *SO ALSO IS CHRIST.*" Let's step back from our magnifying glass view, and look at the big picture of 1 Cor. 12- "Concerning spiritual(ities)... all these worketh that one and the selfsame spirit... For... so also is Christ..." You see, the real difference between Trinitarians and we "God is one/Christ is all" adherents is this- whenever the Bible mentions the name "Christ" Trinitarians see only the Son, but we "Oneness" see "all the fullness of the godhead" in the name of Jesus Christ, for in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the godhead... and ye are complete in Him..." Col 2:9-10. I don't disagree with you that most of 1 Cor. 12 was written pointing downhill from Christ to the church. What you fail to see is that Paul is using this downhill terminology to express uphill concepts AS WELL- "FOR... SO ALSO IS CHRIST"!!! All I should have to do to convince you of this is show you that "Christ" is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 12:11-12, and that all these concepts are applicable in reference to Christ. I've already shown you that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost ARE responsible for giving the gifts and callings and therefore these three are "that one and the selfsame spirit," Since "ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT." (Which is just another way of saying- 1Jo 5:7 "...There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.") So let's look uphill and see, verse by verse, how this chapter does VERY WELL apply TO CHRIST "For... so also is Christ" (and Christ is definitely A "SPIRITUALITY")- 1 Cor 12:1, 12 "Concerning Spiritualities... So also is Christ..." 1 Cor 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." Joh 14:24 "...THE WORD which ye hear IS NOT MINE, but the Father's which sent me." Joh 12:49 "For I HAVE NOT SPOKEN OF MYSELF; BUT THE FATHER WHICH SENT ME, HE GAVE ME A COMMANDMENT, WHAT I SHOULD SAY, AND WHAT I SHOULD SPEAK. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." QUESTION #39) As concerning Christ, did He not say Himself He spoke not of, nor by Himself? How then can Christ be the Almighty, and yet be a Separate Person from the One who is commanding Him to speak? 1 Co 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit" QUESTION #40) Concerning Christ, was the Spirit NOT in Him? Rom 8:14 "...As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Luk 4:1 "And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost... was led by the Spirit..." Mat 12:28 "...I cast out devils by the Spirit of God..." Joh 3:27 "John (the Baptist)...said... 30 He must increase, but I must decrease... 34 ...for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." 1 Cor 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but THE SAME LORD." QUESTION #41) As concerning the Son, who was His Lord? Is Christ subordinate to a Separate Person? Can Christ be the Almighty if He is subject to a Separate Person? Joh 8:29 "...The Father... I do always those things that please him." For, Rom 6:16- "...To whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey..." Rev 22:16 "I Jesus... testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (Father) and the offspring (Son) of David..." 1 Cor 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, BUT IT IS THE SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL." QUESTION #42) Are there more than one God working all in all in Christ? v.12 "For... so also is Christ" Joh 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them... I DO NOTHING OF MYSELF; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." Joh 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." 1 Cor 12:12 "For *AS* the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: *SO ALSO IS CHRIST.*" 13 FOR BY ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit... 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." QUESTION #43) You Trinitarians, who think that the name Jesus Christ only applies to the Son, how do you deal with the fact that Jesus Christ is in the church? Is the Son in the church? Act 1:9 "And when he (Jesus, the Son)... was taken up;... 10 ...while they looked..., two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? THIS SAME JESUS, which is taken up from you into heaven, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM GO into heaven." Mat 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also THE COMING OF THE SON of man be... 29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days... 30 ...THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON of man in heaven: and then... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." QUESTION #44) Has the Son of man come? Has tribulation passed? YET IS NOT JESUS CHRIST IN THE CHURCH? Mat 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together IN MY NAME, THERE AM I in the midst of them." Col 1:27 "...This mystery... is CHRIST IN YOU (saints that is)..." Col 3:11"...Christ is all, AND IN ALL." ." 1 Cor.12:13 "FOR BY ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body... and have been all made to drink into ONE SPIRIT..." 1 Co 12:27 "Now ye are the body OF CHRIST, and members in particular." Trinitarians are blinded to the fullness and the power of the name of Jesus Christ because they falsely believe the name of Jesus Christ only applies to the Son! Getting back to our walk through 1 Cor. 12, as it applies to Christ- 1 Co 12:18 "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him." QUESTION #45) Do you not see that this also applies to the Son ("for so also is Christ")? Is Christ Himself NOT set in by the One God Himself? Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law," Joh 3:16 "For God... gave his only begotten Son... 17 For God sent... his Son into the world..." So you see, "concerning spiritualities... ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT... SO ALSO IS CHRIST..." (1 Cor 12:1,11,12). For- Col 3:11 "...CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL." Col 2:9 "For IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD bodily. 10 AND YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM..." 1 Cor 12:11 "But ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT.... For... so also is Christ" Joh 4:24 "...God is a Spirit." NOT three spirits, or seven spirits, but ONE SPIRIT, ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT! So don't try tell me "that the apostle Paul is EXPLICITLY NOT DEFINING THE GODHEAD in this case." BECAUSE HE MOST DEFINITELY IS! For "Concerning spiritualities... SO ALSO IS CHRIST"!!! You have been duped into your narrow-minded Trinitarian view that- "In verse one, Paul tells us what he's going to talk about, "Now concerning SPIRITUAL GIFTS..." You foolish Trinitarians think the name of the godhead is "Holy Trinity" and that's why you don't see that 1 Cor. 12th chapter is talking about "SO ALSO IS CHRIST." Because when you see the name Christ, all you see is the Son! Oh Foolish Trinitarians, who has bewitched you? QUESTION #46) Joh 14:9 "Jesus saith... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" So why don't you Trinitarians see God the Father when you see Jesus? Phi 2:9 "...God... hath... given him A NAME WHICH IS ABOVE EVERY NAME: 10 That at THE NAME OF JESUS every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER." QUESTION #47) Do you not see that even God the Father has included Himself under the umbrella of the NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES, THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST??? Col 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." Act 4:10 "Be it known unto you all... the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified... 12 ...THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN given among men, whereby we must be saved. Joh 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." Jesus said- Joh 12:32 "And I, IF I BE LIFTED UP from the earth, will draw all men unto me." He never said "if the Trinity be lifted up"! But you and your Trinitarians have attempted to snub out that most spiritual of "spiritualities," of which Paul was speaking in 1 Cor. 12, "THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT... FOR... SO ALSO IS CHRIST!" You've attempted to raise up a name (Trinity) above that precious name of Jesus! 1 Jo 3:23 "AND THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, THAT WE SHOULD BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST..." QUESTION #48) SO WHY DOESN'T THE BIBLE SPECIFICALLY TELL US TO BELIEVE IN A TRINITY OF SEPARATE PERSONS IF IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT DOCTRINE THAT IT IS ESSENTIAL TO OUR SALVATION? AND WHERE ARE WE COMMANDED TO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE TRINITY? (( 2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the LORD Jesus Christ, and the love of GOD, and the communion of the Holy SPIRIT, be with you all. Amen."... Remember "kai"? Let's interpret your verse including the full definition of kai- 2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the LORD Jesus Christ, (and, even, that is) the love of GOD, (and, even, that is) the communion of the Holy SPIRIT, be with you all. Amen." Eph. 5:18-20, "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the LORD, giving thanks always for all things to GOD and the Father IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST." "...GOD (and, even, that is) the Father IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST." - Eph. 5:20. QUESTION #49) Just because these passages "mention" Father, Son, and Holy Ghost does not make them either Oneness or Trinitarian. What makes Eph. 5:20 Oneness is the phrase- "the Father IN THE NAME... JESUS CHRIST" You won't ever hear a Trinitarian call the Father "Jesus Christ," now, WILL YOU? What is so repugnant to Trinitarians about we Oneness worshipping the Father in the one name of Jesus Christ? Joh 5:43 "I am come in my Father's name" Joh 10:25 "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me." Phi 2:10 "That AT THE NAME OF JESUS every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER." Isa 45:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn BY MYSELF, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That UNTO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL bow, every tongue shall swear." Isa 42:8 "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my GLORY WILL I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER, neither my praise to graven images. 11 For mine own sake, EVEN FOR MINE OWN SAKE, WILL I DO IT: FOR HOW SHOULD MY NAME BE POLLUTED? and I will not give my glory unto another." QUESTION #50) If Eph 5:18-20 is speaking Trinitarianese, why does Paul not call God, the Spirit, and Jesus Separate Persons? Why does the Bible not say "the blessed Trinity" as Trinitarians have formulated in their minds, but is NEVER, EVER FORMULATED IN SCRIPTURE? Why do you hold it in such high regard if it is never expressly formulated into a commandment? And why am I considered a heretic by you and yours for speaking against a doctrine that is NEVER FORMALLY OR SPECIFICALLY STATED IN SCRIPTURE? ((But the apostle Paul is not implying that the Father or the Holy Spirit is not Lord or that Christ isn't God. He is just distinguishing between each person of the Godhead.)) QUESTION #51) Since, as we have seen in our study of 1 Cor. 12, and Eph. 4:7-11, that Paul himself teaches that God gives prophets, that Jesus is the same who gives the gifts, including prophets, and that "all these worketh that one and the selfsame spirit," why, scripturally, should we think that Paul is "distinguishing between each person"? Questions 52 through 53- Jesus- the Root and the Offspring. ((Now to tackle another verse which you try to pervert:)) ((<"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (Father) and the offspring (Son) of David" Rev. 22:16)) ((As "the Root...of David," Jesus Christ brought David into existence. As "the Offspring of David," Jesus came into this world, born a Jew from David's line. Both the deity and the humanity of Jesus are evident here, but He isn't claiming to be the Father. Look at Matt. 22:41-45, "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them saying, 'What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?' They said to Him. 'The Son of David.' He said to them, 'How then does David in the Spirit call Him "Lord," saying: "The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool'"? If David then calls Him "Lord," how is He his Son?'")) As you are well aware, from my postings to Betelgeuse which you have referred, that I brought up this point myself, that Jesus' statement in Revelation 22:16 is HIS ANSWER to His question in Matt. 22:41-45. So, I'm very delighted that you have put these together. However, when you say... ((What is Jesus claiming here. I'll submit to you that He is saying that He as the Son of David is also his creator - Jesus is the Root and Offspring of David - NOT GOD THE FATHER.)) I'm afraid I'm not quite sure I'm following your logic here. QUESTION #52) In what sense is God the Father, "the Father," if He is not the creator? QUESTION #53) Can't your God-the-Father do anything by Himself? What important thing has your God-the-Father done in and for this world all by Himself, acting as a Separate Person? No wonder Jesus said these words back in the Old Testament- Deu 32:36 "WHERE ARE THEIR GODS...? 39 See now that I, EVEN I, AM HE, AND THERE IS NO GOD WITH ME" 1 King 18:27 "And... Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked." I'm afraid you have very much proven (not disproven) Oneness by your admission ((As "the Root...of David," Jesus Christ brought David into existence. As "the Offspring of David," Jesus came into this world, born a Jew from David's line)) Mal 2:10 "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?" Isa 63:16 "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art OUR FATHER, our redeemer; THY NAME IS FROM EVERLASTING." Compare Isaiah 63:16 (above) with 9:6- Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS NAME (Jesus) shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace. Questions 54 through 55- Isaiah 9:6 the Son's name is THE everlasting Father! Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, UNTO US A SON IS GIVEN: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and HIS NAME SHALL BE called Wonderful, Counselor, THE mighty God, THE everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." (( You also quote Isaiah 9:6... I suppose what you are trying to say is that the SON is also God the Father, since He is called "The everlasting Father." Is this really what Isaiah is saying? No. This title, as well as the other titles in this verse, denotes the coming Messiah's CHARACTER. This particular expression translates as "father of eternity." The coming Messiah is described as eternal in nature, implying also that He is Creator, the Lord of time and history. Obviously, this has nothing to do with Jesus' supposed identity as God the Father.)) And again you continue to remove your God-the-Father from creation. He really didn't do anything here, did He? Actually, no, I'm not JUST (( trying to say... that the SON is also God the Father)) I'm trying to show you that JESUS IS THE NAME of BOTH the Father and the Son, for- "HIS NAME SHALL BE called... THE everlasting Father." QUESTION #54) Are you telling me there are two God's who are Fathers? One "Father-of-eternity, and one just God-the-Father? I really am afraid you're going to have to explain your point a little clearer, I really don't see the difference! And by the scriptures, PLEASE! Joh 8:19 "Then said they unto him, WHERE IS THY FATHER? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: IF YE HAD KNOWN *ME*, YE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN MY FATHER ALSO... 24 I said therefore unto you, that YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS: **FOR IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS**. 25 Then said they unto him, WHO ART THOU? And Jesus saith unto them, EVEN THE SAME THAT I SAID UNTO YOU from the beginning... 27 THEY UNDERSTOOD NOT THAT HE SPAKE TO THEM OF THE FATHER." Before you get to carried away in judging me as a heretic, you really, REALLY ought to SERIOUSLY consider, reconsider, and reconsider again the above passage! QUESTION #55) Do you really NOT believe that Jesus is THE "I AM" of whom He spake when He was speaking to the Pharisees OF THE FATHER? Compare- Joh 6:44 "No man can come to me, EXCEPT THE FATHER... DRAW HIM..." with Jesus' saying- Joh 12:32 "...**I**... WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO *ME*." Compare- Joh 1:29 "...John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN of the world... 31 And I knew... HE SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST..." with- 1 Joh 3:1 "Behold... THE FATHER... 5 ...YE KNOW THAT HE WAS MANIFESTED to take away our sins..." Rev 1:1 "The Revelation of JESUS CHRIST... 11 "...I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST:...17 ...I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead... 21:7 ...7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and **I** will be his God, and he shall be MY SON." Please continue with the 226 questions disproving the doctrine of the Trinity. QUESTION 56 Return to the Table of Contents for the 226 questions Return to the preface for the studies on the doctrine of the Oneness of God in the name of Jesus Christ. Read real conversations on the topic of Oneness vs. Trinity. |