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Conversation with an agnostic on the subject of the godhead - Part Two<<For a final example of the three-person godhead, let's examine the very first chapter of Genesis that describes God's creation of the earth and universe. In this ENTIRE first chapter, God is ALWAYS referred to by the Hebrew name Elohim (pronounced El-o-heem). Elohim is a PLURAL term for Divine, majestic beings. This chapter also refers to Elohim as a "Spirit", and in Genesis 1:26, God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness.">> First let's look at the dictionary definition of 'Elohim'- "This term for deity is used in a threefold connotation in the O.T. *1) IN A SINGULAR SENSE of the One True God in a PLURAL OF MAJESTY or excellence. It is CONSTRUED WITH A SINGULAR VERB OR ADJECTIVE (Gen. 1:1; 2 Kings 19:4, 16; Psa. 7:10; 57:3; 78:56); but with a plural verb only in certain places. *2) All gods or deities in general, 'the gods of the Egyptians' (Exod. 12:12)... *3) Of judges or prophets as those, 'unto whom the Word of God came' (John 10:35; Psa. 82:6), and whom God consequently dignified with authority to bear His Own Name (Exod. 21:6; 22:8)..." -Unger's Bible Dictionary, Moody Press. This (*1 above) is exactly how the Bible describes God, a PLURAL OF MAJESTY, but singular in personality- "Now there are DIVERSITIES of gifts, BUT THE SAME SPIRIT. And there are DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATIONS, BUT THE SAME Lord. And there ARE DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, BUT IT IS THE SAME God which worketh all in all... But ALL THESE worketh that ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT " -1 Corinthians 12:4-11. Take for example, one of the 12 gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12- the gift of prophecy. Is it given by the Holy spirit, by the Father, or by Jesus Christ? "For to one IS GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT... PROPHECY... BUT ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as he will" -1 Corinthians 12:8-11. "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him... GOD HATH SET SOME IN the church, first apostles, SECONDARILY PROPHETS, thirdly teachers..." -1 Corinthians 12:18, 28 "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of THE GIFT OF CHRIST. Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ASCENDED UP ON HIGH, HE... GAVE GIFTS UNTO MEN. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? HE that descended IS THE SAME also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And HE GAVE SOME, apostles; and some, PROPHETS; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" -Ephesians 4:7-11. There is no contradiction here IF "ALL THESE worketh that ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT " -1 Corinthians 12:4-11 because "There are diversities of gifts... And there are differences of administrations... And there are diversities of operations, but IT IS THE SAME GOD which worketh all in all... that ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT " -1 Cor. 12:4-6, 11. There is a great contradiction here if one believes in a Trinity of separate persons in the Godhead! Let's get back to the subject of creation. You quoted Gen. 1:26, and again, you have failed to keep the requirement that you placed on me, that <<Your argument must comprise a consistent whole.>>. Look at the very next verse- "And God said, LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of GOD CREATED *HE* HIM; male and female CREATED *HE* THEM" -Genesis 1:26-27. Do you notice the change from the word "make" to the word "created" and that *HE* created, not *WE* created? "Make" and "created" are two different words in the Hebrew- Make- "to do or make, IN THE BROADEST SENSE AND WIDEST APPLICATION (as follows): -Accomplish, advance, appoint... commit...furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant... maintain... provide..." (etc.) -Strong's Concordance (Strong's #6213). Created- "a prim. root; (absol.) TO CREATE; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select..." -Strong's Concordance (Strong's #1254). So then, God verily did "create" man all by Himself, just as the scripture says- "Know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and THE HOLY ONE of Israel HATH CREATED IT" -Isaiah 41:20. I'll get back to the "let us make" phrase in a moment, but for now, let's look closer at who it was that "created". The Bible NEVER uses the word Trinity, let alone the phrase 'Holy Trinity', the Bible uses the phrase 'Holy One' in reference to God 51 times. And who is this Holy One? "Jesus of Nazareth... thine Holy One" -Acts 2:22-27 "Thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called" -Isaiah 54:5. "For I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste VIRGIN TO CHRIST" -2 Corinthians 11:2. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made... He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not... the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth... No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" -John 1:1, 3, 10, 14, 18. Trinitarians love to quote Gen. 1:26, and say God said "let us make man in our image". Then they go on to say that we are body, mind, and soul, or such like, as if that were the "image" of the "triune" God. The problem is, Trinitarians don't stop with speaking of God as being multiple in attribute, but "separate" in "persons". There are people who have three (or other multiples of) persons living in one body, and going by one name, but these people aren't considered normal, they are called schizophrenic! Are they not? Here is the definition of the word "schizophrenic 1. Of, relating to, or affected with schizophrenia. 2. Of, relating to, OR CHARACTERIZED BY THE COEXISTENCE OF DISPARATE OR ANTAGONISTIC ELEMENTS". -American Heritage Dictionary. I, for one, am not schizophrenic, I was not created schizophrenic, nor do I worship a schizophrenic God! "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..." Being made in the image of God, neither your, nor my word is a separate person from ourselves. It is by our words that we know each other, that we express ourselves to each other. In this way God expresses who He is- by His Word. Therefore, His word is both with Him, and IS HIM, but never in scripture is His Word described in the sense of being a separate person from Him. Just as your and my words aren't separate persons from us. This is why the scripture can say "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son (the Word made flesh), which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". God who created man from the dust of the earth, created His Son from His own expressed Word, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Having become a flesh and blood man, a male child, whom was begotten of the Father, the Word is therefore become "the Son of God". But this Son is not a separate person, He is the Word made flesh, by whom God declares (reveals and expresses) Himself to mankind. Neither is this man just a man, for the Spirit that is inside Him, is the One True God- "As concerning the FLESH CHRIST CAME, WHO IS OVER ALL, GOD blessed for ever. Amen" -Romans 9:5. So then, Jesus was actually MORE than God only, He was "God manifest in the flesh" -1 Timothy 3:16. And therefore, "In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. AND YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power" -Colossians 2:9-10. And therefore Jesus could say, when asked of His disciples- "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet HAST THOU NOT KNOWN ME, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" -John 14:8-10. Because "GOD WAS IN CHRIST, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" -2 Corinthians 5:19. Do you see then how truly this Jesus was THE temple of the Living God? Once we understand what it means to be a temple, then we can realize what it means to be temples ourselves- "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" 1 Corinthians .3:16-17. "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? FOR YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, SAITH THE LORD, and touch not the unclean thing; AND I WILL RECEIVE YOU, AND WILL BE A FATHER UNTO YOU, AND YE SHALL BE MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS, SAITH THE LORD ALMIGHTY" -2 Corinthians 6:15-18. Again, Revelations "reveals" that the Lord Almighty, is none other than Jesus Himself- "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY... I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST... I AM HE THAT LIVETH, AND WAS DEAD; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen" -Revelations 1:8-11, 17-18. "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his (Israel's) redeemer the LORD of hosts; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD" -Isaiah 44:6. You see, Jesus, in HIS book of Revelation, declares Himself to be the FIRST AND THE LAST. But Trinitarians make him out to be "the Second Person of the Trinity". They, thereby, teach a different Jesus- "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to ONE HUSBAND... TO CHRIST. But I FEAR, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For IF HE THAT COMETH PREACHETH ANOTHER JESUS, WHOM WE HAVE NOT PREACHED, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him" -2 Corinthians 11:2-4. And that is exactly what happened. Neither Jesus, nor the apostles preached that God was a Trinity of persons. This doctrine was introduced from pagan philosophy into the Christian church 100's of years after the apostles had passed on. It became the commonly accepted doctrine only at and after the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Why are people confused at this? Did not God warn, and prophecy that- "The LORD of hosts himself;... HE SHALL BE... A STONE OF STUMBLING AND FOR A ROCK OF OFFENCE... AND MANY AMONG THEM SHALL STUMBLE, AND FALL, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken" -Isaiah 8:13-15. "The disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because IT IS GIVEN UNTO YOU TO KNOW THE MYSTERIES of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN... because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, BY HEARING YE SHALL HEAR, AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND SEEING YE SHALL SEE, AND SHALL NOT PERCEIVE: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them" -Matthew 13:10-17. Now let us return to "let us make man in our image". First off, we must keep in mind this law of Biblical interpretation- "God... calleth those things WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH they were" -Romans 4:17. God, when He said "let us make man" could not have been speaking to the angels in heaven, for none of the angels were to be temples of the Holy Ghost. Neither was the image of God a "Trinity of separate persons", because men are not made into little Trinities of persons (schizophrenics). What God was doing in saying "let us make man in our image", was laying the blueprints for the work and ministry of the saints of God. He was speaking to those that were not, as though they were, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" -Romans 8:29. Mankind are not naturally born into being temples of the Spirit of Christ-"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" -Romans 8:9-11. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN" -John 3:6-7. This is one more reason why I preach Acts 2:38 as the salvation plan- "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and YE SHALL RECEIVE (future tense) THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" -Acts 2:38. Because THAT is how to obey the gospel, the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THEM THAT PREACH THE GOSPEL of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel" -Romans 10:14-16. "WE THEN, AS WORKERS TOGETHER WITH HIM, BESEECH YOU also that ye receive... the grace of God" -2 Corinthians 6:1.. "Jesus Christ... HATH GIVEN TO US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION" -2 Corinthians 5:18. "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, AND ONE CONVERT HIM; Let him know, that HE WHICH CONVERTETH THE SINNER from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins" -James 5:19-20. "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; AND ARE BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth UNTO AN HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord: In WHOM YE ALSO ARE BUILDED TOGETHER FOR AN HABITATION OF GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT. For this cause I Paul... was made a minister" - Ephesians 2:19-3:7. It is for this reason that "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, UNTO A PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" -Ephesians 4:11-13. You see- man was created in Genesis, but He is still being "made"- "till we (the saints) all come in the unity of the faith... UNTO A PERFECT MAN, unto the... fulness of Christ", and the "us" in "let us make man in our image" is very fittingly applied to those of us who ARE temples of the living God, having His Spirit dwelling in us. To those saints, God can say, calling those things which be not as though they were, "let us make man in our image". Now ask, when we (the saints) are completed, will we each be made into Trinities of separate persons? Of course not. Will we be made into Gods? Of course not. We will be temples of the living God- "THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL" -1 Corinthians 15:28. And that is what is meant when Paul says, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ" -1 Corinthians 11:1. The "image" that we are to be "made" into is the image of the temple, "he spake of the temple of his body" -John 2:21, "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" -1 Corinthians 6:19. "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF SO BE that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" -Romans 8:9-10. ________________________________________________________________ Now, I have some questions for you. The scriptures teach that the mysteries of God are not revealed to non-believers- "The mystery of Christ... WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, as it is now REVEALED UNTO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS BY THE SPIRIT" - Ephesians 3:4-5. "If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you... The Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE SHALL TEACH YOU all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you... Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come" -John 14:15-17, 26, 16:13. "But we speak the wisdom of God IN A MYSTERY, EVEN THE HIDDEN WISDOM, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. BUT GOD HATH REVEALED THEM UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT: FOR THE SPIRIT SEARCHETH ALL THINGS, YEA, THE DEEP THINGS OF GOD. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. "Now WE HAVE RECEIVED, NOT THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD, BUT THE SPIRIT WHICH IS OF GOD; THAT **WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD. WHICH THINGS ALSO WE SPEAK, NOT IN THE WORDS WHICH MAN'S WISDOM TEACHETH, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT the things of the Spirit of God: FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST" -1 Corinthians 2:7-16. Considering these scriptures, what makes you think you, being an agnostic, CAN DISCERN the scriptures? You know the Bible pretty well, but are not able to discover the answers to the mysteries of the faith. Have you not yourself proven the truth of the above scriptures by your lack of ability to find these answers that I have given you? If God says there are stumblingblocks in the Word, and there are mysteries that can only be revealed through the Spirit, should you expect to be able to find them, being an agnostic? Doesn't this also prove to you who does, and who does not have the Spirit, and the mind of Christ? (I could ask the same thing of Baptists, or Grace Brethren's, or whoever that don't teach the Completeness, and Oneness of God in Christ, and Acts 2:38 as the plan of salvation). If you (an agnostic) WERE ABLE, that WOULD prove the Word of God to have contradicted itself. But you cannot, therefore, the Word of God is true! There are mysteries that YOU, and others that don't have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them, CANNOT UNDERSTAND! Therefore, your questions actually prove, rather than disprove, the accuracy of the Bible! Do they not? God Bless! |