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Conversation with an agnostic on the subject of the godhead - Part One

Hello Betelgeuse,

Thanks again for your patience in waiting for this response.

<<Now, you're probably wondering why somebody who's an admitted agnostic would bother defending the concept of the Trinity... I did a little research and discovered that the Bible has strong scriptural support for the idea of a three-person godhood.>>

I wish the proponents of the Trinity could grasp the magnitude of your statement right here. For the scripture says-

"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, but my Father which is in heaven" -Matthew 16:15-17.

And- "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned... But we have the mind of Christ" -1 Corinthians 2:14-16.

You are an admitted agnostic claiming to understand what the scriptures say can only be understood through the Spirit. How is your understanding then spiritually discerned? Trinitarians use the same intellect to discern the Trinity doctrine, how then is their understanding spiritually discerned? It is not- it is carnally minded.

On the other hand, if "The mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory: Whom we preach" -Colossians 1:26-28, then we would expect that mystery NOT TO BE DISCERNIBLE BY A SELF ADMITTED AGNOSTIC!!!! Right? And yet you picked right up on, not the Oneness of God, but a trinity of persons in the Godhead!!! Your very admission, then, has actually become (though admittedly only a tidbit of) evidence AGAINST the trinity doctrine!

<<Your argument must comprise a consistent whole.>>

Oh yes! And that is precisely why the Trinity doctrine of three separate persons in the Godhead is heresy! As we shall see.

<<My NIV Life Application Bible>> We discussed other versions previously, so I won't harp on the NIV again here.

Now then- <<Let's start with Matthew 28:18-19 -->>

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway"

<<My NIV... footnote... says... (although you might argue that Biblical footnotes don't qualify as inspired Holy Writ):>>

You are exactly right. Biblical footnotes qualify, (generally speaking) most often, as- "the pens of the scribes falsifying the word" which we have also covered previously. (And which you have seen me defend myself so strongly against, having been accused of relying on). If the Bible is complete, why would they need to supplement it, unless to attempt to explain something away? Very suspicious. Need I say more? I don't want to ramble further on covered ground. So let's look at the words themselves and see HOW they have falsified the word:

<<"Jesus' words affirm the reality of the Trinity.>>

Oh really? Allow me to paraphrase Matthew 28 just a little: "*ALL* power is given unto *ME* in heaven AND in earth" therefore go and baptize in the name of ME AND TWO OTHER PERSONS (?) It doesn't make sense. That is because, as you have so aptly stated, Matt. 28:18-19, in and of itself, does not "comprise a consistent whole".

This passage in Matthew is referred to as the "Great Commission". Matthew was not the only writer to relate this story. Here's Luke's version- "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and REMISSION OF SINS SHOULD BE PREACHED IN HIS (CHRIST'S) NAME among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" -Luke 24:46-47. This is because baptism is FOR the remission of sins: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" -Acts 2:38.

The real key to understanding Matthew 28:18 is in the PURPOSE of baptism- "Know ye not, that so many of US AS WERE BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST WERE BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? Therefore WE ARE BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH..." -Romans 6:3-4.

Neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost (which, by the way, are titles, not proper names), died. It was the flesh only, the humanity, of Jesus that died.

This is why in every instance of baptism, until the Trinity doctrine began infiltrating the Christian church from Roman pagan philosophy, all converts, beginning from John 4:2 until 100's of years after the last apostle, ALL CONVERTS WERE BAPTIZED EXCLUSIVELY IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. (Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:4-5, Gal. 3:26-27, Col. 2:6, 12, Rom. 6:3-4). This is because- "by the name of Jesus Christ... Neither is there salvation in any other: for THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME under heaven given among men, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED" -Acts 4:11-12. And "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus" -Col. 3:17.

To understand this, we need to go back to the Old Testament schoolmaster that brought us to Christ (Gal 3:24). You surely remember that Christ spoke of the "temple of His body" (John 2:21), right? Well, do you remember the story of Solomon, when he built the first temple, and WHY?

"BUT WILL GOD INDEED DWELL ON THE EARTH? behold, the heaven and heaven of HEAVENS CANNOT CONTAIN THEE; how MUCH LESS THIS HOUSE that I have builded? Yet... THOU HAST SAID, *MY NAME* SHALL BE THERE: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall PRAY TOWARD THIS PLACE: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive" -1 Kings 8:27-30.

Just as Solomon's temple wasn't just an outer shell, but, the place where GOD'S NAME would be, and the place where God's people would go for forgiveness, and where God's people would direct their prayer towards, and the place where God's power was represented, all these things and more, point to Jesus the man/God. "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world UNTO HIMSELF" -2 Corinthians 5:19.

What am I saying, that I believe Jesus was only the man through whom God worked? NO. I am saying Jesus was BOTH, the man and the One (and only) true God. To the hypocrites of His day- "Jesus asked them, Saying, 'What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?' They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, 'How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? IF DAVID THEN CALL HIM LORD, HOW IS HE HIS SON? -Matthew 22:41-45.

Jesus did not reveal the answer to this question until the end of the book of Revelations, which is fitting because that book is called by John- "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1:1).

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM THE ROOT **AND** THE OFFSPRING of David" -Revelation 22:16. Here Jesus is claiming to be BOTH THE Father, AND the Son, for " Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?" -Malachi 2:10.

This is why Isaiah wrote that- "UNTO US A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given... AND HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED... THE mighty God, THE EVERLASTING FATHER" (Isaiah 9:6) because Jesus was both God and man- "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" -1 Timothy 3:16. This is talking about Jesus, very specifically, both in humanity and deity.

Therefore, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after CHRIST. For IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. AND YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM" -Colossians 2:8. Just as Solomon's temple didn't contain "ALL THERE IS of God, so Jesus THE MAN didn't, in Jesus dwells ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD, bodily.

Jesus "came in His Father's name" (John 5:43), He "manifested His Father's name" and "declared" His Father's name (John 17:6, 26). Furthermore, "God also hath highly exalted him, and GIVEN HIM A NAME which is above EVERY NAME: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow... And that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to the glory of God the Father" -Philippians 2:9-11. Since God said- "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another" -Isaiah 42:8, Thereby, we know that Jesus is none other than the very same God of the Old Testament. In fact, as you referenced yourself, Jesus here claimed to be the great "I AM" Himself, He even went so far as to say- "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM he, ye shall die in your sins" -John 8:24. (the "he" following I AM in the KJV is not found in the Greek text). Therefore, those who believe that Jesus is a separate individual from God the Father, are dead in their sins.

Furthermore, it is no contradiction to baptize "in the name of Jesus" IN OBEDIENCE to Matthew 28:19 (in addition to obeying Luke 24:47, and Acts 2:38, and Romans 6:3-4). In fact, it is being DISOBEDIENT to be baptized using the words "in the name of the FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST" since they are merely titles, and NOT the ONE NAME GIVEN under heaven WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED, according to Acts 4:10-12. Even as your commentary says "He did not say to baptize believers in the names (plural), but into the name (singular) of..." and then they go and contradict themselves and list three so-called "names" (which are actually only titles). Do you not see how they contradict themselves in that?

Therefore, whoever is baptized into the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, instead of "in the name of Jesus Christ" ONLY is just getting wet. There is NO SCRIPTURALLY STATED *PURPOSE* TO BEING BAPTIZED INTO THE TITLES. Therefore, it DOESN'T DO or accomplish ANYTHING (spiritually or scripturally speaking), to be baptized into the titles. "Know ye not, that so many OF US AS WERE BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST WERE BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? Therefore WE ARE BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. FOR IF WE HAVE BEEN PLANTED TOGETHER IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH, WE SHALL BE ALSO IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION" -Romans 6:3-6.

You see, only (and very specifically) WE who are baptized INTO CHRIST'S DEATH, are promised that we also shall be raised in the likeness of His resurrection. Those who are baptized into the Trinitarian interpretation of Matthew 28:19 are not baptized into THE (singular) name, nor are they "baptized into His death" because the Father and the Holy Spirit" did not die. (Another example for you of scribes falsifying His word). Also remember, you yourself said- <<Your argument must comprise a consistent whole.>>. Matthew 28:19 is the only verse of scripture that mentions baptism into THE name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. But Jesus qualifies even that statement by saying- a) "all power is given UNTO ME"!, and b) into THE NAME of (singular). So, you are very correct that one verse alone does not "comprise a consistent whole".

But what about the title of "Spirit"? How does the name of Jesus apply to that title?

Jesus said- "The Comforter, which IS THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send IN MY NAME" -John 14:26.

You probably know that "There is one body, and one Spirit" -Eph. 4:4, maybe you even know that "there is one Lord" -Eph. 4:5, and that "Jesus Christ... HE IS LORD of all" -Acts 10:36. But did you know that "THE LORD *IS* THAT SPIRIT"? -2 Corinthians 3:17. Translated, using scripture to interpret scripture- The Lord (Jesus Christ) IS that spirit!

This is, in fact, the mystery, and a trademark of the TRUE church of Jesus Christ!!! Because- "The mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS: To whom (saints only) God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU... Whom we preach" -Colossians 1:26-28.

On this particular subject the Bible even uses MUCH STRONGER LANGUAGE. To those who believe Jesus is a separate person from the Holy Spirit, the scripture has something else to say to them- "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU, EXCEPT YE BE REPROBATES?" -2 Corinthians 13:5. If a saint of God claims the Holy spirit in them is a separate person from Jesus Christ, that person is a reprobate! (reprobate = rejected or worthless). Yet this is exactly what most Christians claim today, and that proudly, that they believe the Holy Spirit is a separate person from Jesus Christ! The Bible gets even stronger in it's language to these folks-

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, WHO CONFESS NOT that JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" -2 John 7. Oh yes, that verse is very much so speaking in the present tense in the Greek, and not in the past tense. IS come, NOT has come!!

The same can be said of 1 John 4:1-

"This is his commandment, That we should BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST... And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, AND HE IN HIM. And hereby we know that HE ABIDETH IN US, BY THE SPIRIT which he hath given us. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that JESUS CHRIST IS COME in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ IS COME in the flesh is NOT OF GOD: AND THIS IS THAT SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is HE THAT IS IN YOU, than he that is in the world" -1 John 3:23-4:4.

In fact, if 1 John 4:4 is speaking in the past tense, about Jesus' coming 2000 years ago, then the Bible has contradicted itself (which I don't believe), because devils did confess Jesus back then-"A spirit of an unclean devil... cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I KNOW THEE WHO THOU ART; THE HOLY ONE OF GOD. And Jesus rebuked him" -Luke 4:33-35..

"And devils also came out of MANY, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ" -Luke 4:41.

Even now devils continue to confess that Christ came in the flesh back then. Practically every false form of Christianity has confessed that Jesus did come in the flesh back then. In fact most non-Christian religions also confess that Jesus came in the flesh back then. Some claim Jesus was "one of" the great teachers, (though they claim He was misunderstood. But, a "great teacher" IS someone who can translate his knowledge well, so a "misunderstood great teacher" is a contradiction in terms).

(Continued in part 2- 'Let us make man in our image')

Please continue with Conversation with an agnostic on the subject of the godhead - Part Two