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Let us Reason Together Is the Oneness or the
Trinity doctrine illogical and unreasonable? Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason
together, saith the LORD…. 19 If ye be willing
and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But
if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the
sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. You Trinitarians fail to realize that
you are not quoting scripture, indeed cannot, that
specifically states that there are three persons in the
Godhead. You are merely interpreting events to fit your
carnal understanding. How is it logical or reasonable to
interpret an event contrary to scriptural commandments
and biblically stated definitions and explanations? What scripture have you Trinitarians
provided, or even exists, that specifically says that
Jesus' baptism event is descriptive of the godhead, let
alone a declaration of multiple persons in the godhead
contrary to scriptural commandments and explicit
descriptions of God and Christ? Where does scripture itself say that a
voice from heaven equates to a distinct person in the
godhead? John 5:37 And the Father himself, which
hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither
heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. What did the voice say? Did the voice
say "I am a separate person from the Son"? No,
it said- Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven,
saying, This is my beloved Son, **IN WHOM I AM**
well pleased. What did this voice mean- "IN
WHOM I AM"? Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the
fulness of the godhead bodily. 10 And ye are
complete IN HIM, 1 Cor 11:3 …the head of Christ is
God. John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I
speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the father
that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 4:23 …the true worshippers
shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth... 24 God
is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship
him in spirit and in truth. 1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one
God, the Father, The following scriptures specifically
teach that God is one and the Selfsame Spirit- 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of
gifts, but the same spirit. 5 And there are
differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the
same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the
manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to
profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit
the word of wisdom… 10 …to another
prophecy… 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame
Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he
will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members,
and all the members of that one body, being many, are one
body: so also is Christ. Who is it that gives these gifts? 1 Corinthians says it is one and the
selfsame Spirit. 1 Cor 12:18 & 28 say- 1 Cor 12:18 But now hath God set the
members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased
him… 1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the
church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly
teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings,
helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Remember, the scripture, not I nor my
private interpretations nor the mere philosophizing after
the traditions of men says- 1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one
God, the Father, John 4:23 …the true worshippers
shall worship the Father in spirit... 24 GOD IS **A**
SPIRIT: By searching the scriptures as we are
commanded to do, we come to Eph 4:8-10, and who is it
there that gives the gift and callings in the church? Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is
given grace according to the measure of the gift of
christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up
on high, he… gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that
he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first
into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is
the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,
that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some,
apostles; and some, prophets; So then, 1 Cor 12:11 said " all
these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit", and
1 Cor 12:18 & 28 tells us it is "God set the
members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased
HIM… And God hath set some in the
church… secondarily prophets..." And
then Eph 4:7-11 tells us these things are "the gifts
of Christ", and that HE is the SAME ALSO
that gave prophets. Then when we go back to 1 Corinthians
12, where HE who gives these gifts is being
specifically described in the scriptures, the
God-breathed word and commandments of God, we find this
definition- 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of
gifts, but THE SAME SPIRIT. 5 And there are
differences of administrations, but THE SAME LORD.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is THE
SAME GOD which worketh ALL IN ALL… 11 But
ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT,
dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For AS
THE BODY IS ONE, and hath many members, and all the
members of that one body, being many, are one body: SO
ALSO IS CHRIST. WHO is all in all? Col 3:11 …CHRIST IS ALL,
and in all. And this is exactly what Jesus
testifies to- Rev 22:16 I JESUS… testify
unto you... I am the root **AND** the
offspring… Now, where in scripture is it stated
that the subject/object speech has anything more to do
than differences of "body members" as soul
relates to body, or as the humanity of Jesus relates to
deity? Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their
wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife
loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own
flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord
the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his
flesh, and of his bones. Since we "love" our bodies,
are our bodies separate members of our "head"
or soul? Since we are members of Christ's body, does this
mean that we are separate members of the GodHEAD? John 17:11 …Holy Father, keep
through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that
they may be one, as we are. How are we one? Scripture says we are
members of His body, not distinct or separate members of
the GodHEAD. So what makes Trinitarians think, or
what scripture specifically teaches that Christ is not
referring to His humanity, and not to some hypothetical
separate personage of deity? Or do you think you are
going to be a separate person member of the godHEAD,
as you claim Jesus is, since we will be one with the
Father like Him? Trinitarians simply aren't reading the
passages in light of specifically stated scriptural
descriptions. Trinitarians are throwing out scriptural
descriptions in order to interpret events according to
their own opinions and traditions. This is not being
logical or reasonable, this is being rebellious,
disrespectful, and disobedient!!! Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord,
Lord, and do not the things which I say? John 5:39 Search the scriptures;
for… they are they which testify of me. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word
which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from
it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your
God which I command you. We have relationship between our
bodies, and our souls. Jesus Christ has both a fully
human body and soul, and all the fulness of the
one true God the Father within Him **BODILY**. THEREFORE
JESUS IS GOD AND THEN SOME. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet,
that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit
hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. So what scripture says Jesus can't be
and have a fully human personality and at the same time
be and have a fully deity personality, and there be
conversation between them, without necessarily being
distinct persons in the "godHEAD", but
merely distinctions in humanity and deity? 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one
mediator between God and men, **the (hu)man**
Christ Jesus; Num 23:19 God is not a man…
neither the son of man, Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change
not… 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy
great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in
the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,
received up into glory. 2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was IN
Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God
will provide **Himself** a lamb for a burnt offering:
so they went both of them together. 1 Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell
on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of
heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house
that I have builded? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the
prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my
God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy
servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes
may be open toward this house night and day, even toward
the place of which thou hast said, **my name shall be
there:** that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer
which thy servant shall make toward this place. Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven,
saying, This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I AM well
pleased. Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ
our Lord, which was made of the seed of david
according to the flesh; John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said
unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The (made of
the seed of David flesh) Son can do nothing of (made of
the seed of David flesh Son) himself, but what he seeth
the (to us there is but one God the) Father do: for what
things soever he doeth, these also doeth the (made of the
seed of David flesh) Son likewise. 1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one
God, the Father… John 14:10 …the (to us there is
but one God the) Father that dwelleth in (the made of the
seed of David flesh Son) me, he (the to us there is but
one God the Father) doeth the works. John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of
his body. Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou,
Lord (Jehovah)? And he said unto me, I AM JESUS of
Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon
his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the Everlasting
Father, The Prince of Peace. Rev 22:16 I Jesus… testify unto
you... I am the root AND the offspring (according
to the flesh Son) of David… Where then is scripture which
specifically teaches otherwise that the distinctions
between the human temple and the one God who dwelled
within, and who did the works therein, are distinct
members of the godHEAD? There are none. Not without going
outside of the scripture, adding to it, and taking away
from it- and how is that reasonable or logical when God
has commanded against it? Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command
you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor
diminish from it. Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The
first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; THE
LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD: John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said
unto him, MY LORD AND MY GOD. 29 Jesus saith unto
him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, THOU HAST
BELIEVED: Gal 3:20 …God is one. Col 3:11 …Christ is all, and in
all. Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth ALL the
fulness of the Godhead bodily. Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto
them, saying, ALL power is given unto me in
heaven and in earth. Therefore, if there is any other god or
person, they have NO POWER! Furthermore, to add a description of a
Trinity of separate persons in the godhead to the God of
the bible is to follow after the pagan descriptions of
their deity. How is doing that logical or reasonable when
God has also thoroughly forbidden by specifically
commanding against that? Deu 6:14 Ye shall not
go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are
round about you... Deu 13:6 If thy
brother... entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and
serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor
thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which
are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from
thee... 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken
unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt
thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:" The Trinitarians looked
to the gods which were "round about" them to
serve! Who were these "gods" that were
"round about" them? None other than the Trinity
of Persons in one god! "It is a solution by
harmonization, an attempt to combine, as Gregory of Nyssa
characterizes it, the monotheism of the Jews and the
polytheism of the Greeks. the method of harmonization
used by them was to thin down the Jewish monotheism as a
concession to Greek polytheism."
-Wolfson, Harry A. "The Philosophy of the Church
Fathers", pgs. 578-579, as quoted in After The
Way Called Heresy, by Thomas Weisser, page 32. "In the Trimurti, Brahma... The
Lord God, though one without a second, assumes the three
forms respectively of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva... though
three in form, are one entity... It may, however be noted
that, whereas the trinity is presented in
Scholastic philosophy as a mystery, it is a
fundamental definition of Hindu religious philosophy!"
-Edward Rice, Eastern Definitions, pg. 387. as
quoted in After The Way Called Heresy, by Thomas
Weisser, Page 34. "Mr. Layard, in his last work, has
given a specimen of such a triune divinity, worshipped
in ancient Assyria. The accompanying cut of such
another divinity (trinity), worshipped among the pagans
of Siberia..." -Rev. Alexander Hislop, The
Two Babylons, pages 16-17. "The ancient Babylonians,
just as the modern Romans, recognized in words the
unity of the Godhead; and, while worshipping
innumerable minor deities, as possessed of certain
influence on human affairs, they distinctly acknowledged
that there was one infinite and almighty creator,
supreme over all... in the unity of that one only god
of the Babylonians, there were three persons..."
-Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pages
14-17. In the final analysis, all that
Trinitarians have to describe their god are the
traditions of men, and their ability to lean upon their
own understanding. How is this then logical or reasonable
in formulating their doctrine, when the Lord has
commanded- Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all
thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct
thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the
LORD, and depart from evil. Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his
way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him
return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him;
and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my
thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my
ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher
than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and
my thoughts than your thoughts. When Trinitarians lean unto their own
understanding in describing the godhead according to
their perceptions and interpretations of events, they
aren't being reasonable. They aren't being logical. They
are simply being rebellious and disobedient. They can
point to no commandment to believe that God is a Trinity
of persons yet they command people to believe it. They
can point to no scripture that describes or declares God
to be a Trinity of persons, yet they take it upon
themselves to describe God in this manner contrary to His
specifically stated words and commands- even the very
first commandment of all! Therefore, they are saying that
they know better how to describe God than God Himself in
His own Holy Bible that was inspired by Him. They are
therefore saying in their hearts that they are greater
than God! They are making themselves out to be above God!
They are standing in the temple of God, claiming they are
the real gods, because in their hearts they feel and are
proclaiming that they have the authority to command men
to believe according to their understanding, contrary to
the commandments of God. Is this logical or reasonable?
No- it is rebellion. It is disobedience. It is the spirit
of anti-christ. And that is what those who believe that
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are separate persons are,
according to scripture- little spirits of anti-christ. 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ IS COME in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, Some have tried to say that this just
meant Jesus came in the flesh, past tense. But that
cannot be so. For devils did confess that Jesus came in
the flesh back then… Luke 4:33 …a spirit of an unclean
devil, and cried out with a loud voice, 34 Saying, Let us
alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of
Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who
thou art; the Holy One of God. 35 And Jesus rebuked
him,… 41 And devils also came out of many,
crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of
God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for
they knew that he was Christ. Some would like to say that 1 John
4:2-3 was merely combating gnosticism. But that
interpretation also does not take into account the
absolutely clear present tense of the meaning "is
come." That Greek word is "elhluqota."
This precise, particular word is found in only one other
place in the New Testament Scripture- Acts 18:1 …Paul departed from
Athens, and came to Corinth; 2 And found a certain Jew
named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately "come"
(elhluqota) from Italy, with his wife Priscilla…
and came unto them. 3 And …he abode with them, and
wrought... Not lately "left" and gone
from Italy. Not lately "come and gone"
from Corinth. Will any contend that Paul came to, and
abode with, Aquila after Aquila left Corinth rather than
while he, present tense, "was come"? For John
wrote his epistle well after Jesus had come and gone, and
John says Jesus "is come in the flesh," just as
Aquila was "come," and who therefore, can
possibly, reasonably contend otherwise? For Jesus Himself
said… John 14:18 I will not leave you
comfortless: I will come to you. Mat 18:20 For where two or three are
gathered together in my name, there am I in the
midst of them. It is a simple matter of fact that
John, in 1 John 4:2-3, could have used any of many Greek
word forms except "elhluqota" if he
wanted to declare that Jesus had come in the flesh in the
past tense. But he didn't. John said "is come,"
present tense, in the flesh. Here and now. This present tense of Jesus, being "is
come," can be shown even more emphatically and
irrefutably, through another Greek word
"ercomenon" found in 2 John 7… 2 John 1:7 For many deceivers
are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus
Christ is come (ercomenon) in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist. This particular word
"ercomenon" is found in many passages, but it
is never found in the past tense. Here are some examples
of "ercomenon"… Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was
baptized,… he saw the Spirit of God descending like
a dove, and lighting (ercomenon) upon him: Does anyone wish to prove that Jesus
saw the Spirit descending after it had come and gone? No?
Then John says deceivers and anti-christ confess not that
Jesus Christ "is come," present tense, in the
flesh, and who will deny it, or try to disprove it,
contending, rather, that they are separate or distinct
"persons"? Trinitarians. Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the
sign of the Son of man in heaven… and they shall see
the Son of man coming (ercomenon) in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory. Does anyone wish to prove that they see
the Son of man coming in the clouds after he has come and
gone? No? Then John says deceivers and anti-christ
confess not that Jesus Christ "is come,"
present tense, in the flesh, and who will deny it, or try
to disprove it? Trinitarians. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is
impossible to please him: for he that cometh
(ercomenon) to God must believe that he is, and that
he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Does anyone wish to prove that we have
faith in God after we have come to, and left God? No?
Then John says deceivers and anti-christ confess not that
Jesus Christ "is come," present tense, in the
flesh, and who will deny it, or try to disprove it? Trinitarians. Every example of ercomenon is only
present tense. Never past tense. For other occurrences of
ercomenon, see Mat. 16:28, 26:64; Mark 13:26, 14:62,
15:21; Luke 21:27; John 1:9, 1:29, 1:47, 6:37, 10:12;
Acts 19:4, and Hebrews 6:7. 2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether
ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not
your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except
ye be reprobates? Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath
been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made
manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known
what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the
Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of
glory: Rom 8:9 …Now if any man have
not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body
is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of
righteousness. So how is it being reasonable for a
Trinitarian to say contrarily to these scriptures that
the Holy Spirit in the believers is a separate or
distinct person from Jesus Christ? Such is not logical,
or reasonable. Such as teach or believe that the Holy
Spirit is a separate person from Jesus Chris are
emphatically declared by the scriptures to be- reprobates
(2 Cor 13:5), none of his (Rom 8:9),
not His saints (Col 1:26-28), not of God,
antichrist (1 John 4:3), and deceivers (2 John
1:7) 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit
are we all baptized into one body, Eph 4:4 There is one
body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called
in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one
baptism, John 4:24 God is **A** Spirit: 2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that
Spirit: Acts 10:36 …Jesus Christ: (he
is Lord of all:) Mark 12:29 …The first of all the
commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is
one Lord: 1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one
God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said
unto him, My Lord AND my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast
seen me, THOU HAST BELIEVED: blessed are they that
have not seen, and yet have believed. But these scriptures aren't enough for
Trinitarians. It isn't logical or reasonable enough for
Trinitarians to simply hear the word and obey.
Trinitarians want me to keep my letters to them shorter.
They want to "debate" these things one item at
a time. I refuse to do that. I will not
"debate" the word of God. I will attempt to
convert you by and to the commandments of the scriptures,
or we will not have a conversation. Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like
to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over
to a reprobate mind, to do those things
which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with ALL
UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, fornication, wickedness,
covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, MURDER,
**DEBATE**, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters,
inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural
affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the
judgment of God, that THEY WHICH COMMIT SUCH THINGS
ARE WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have
pleasure in them that do them. Debate is listed right next to
murder in the word of God's list of iniquities!!! And
yet that is what Trinitarians want to do with the
godhead- debate it!! What happened to- John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my
commandments. What are HIS commandments? Number one
is- Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The
first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The
Lord our God is one Lord: BUT NOT TO A TRINITARIAN! TO A
TRINITARIAN THE FIRST COMMANDMENT THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE
LORD IS OPEN FOR DEBATE!!! 2 Cor 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I
come… lest there be DEBATES, envyings,
wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings,
tumults: 2 Tim 2:14 Of these things put them in
remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they STRIVE
NOT ABOUT WORDS TO NO PROFIT, BUT TO THE SUBVERTING OF
THE HEARERS. 1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the
commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good
conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some
having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither
what they say, nor whereof they affirm. I'm not hear to debate the word, GOD
FORBID, but to preach the word- 2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore
before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge
the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and
doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not
endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall
they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and
shall be turned unto fables. Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason
together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as
scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be
red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye BE
WILLING AND OBEDIENT, ye shall eat the good of the
land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be
devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath
spoken it. 21 How is the faithful city become an
harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in
it; but now murderers. James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all
filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive
with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save
your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not
hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 1 Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on HIM (NOT THEM) shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe HE (NOT THEM) is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. In Jesus precious name- the only name under heaven whereby men must be saved, Acts 4:10-12 (which of course in itself, automatically, logically, and reasonably, excludes the name "Trinity") Tom Raddatz |