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When That Which is Perfect is Come This is a reply I gave on the subject of 1 Corinthians 13:8 where the erroneous doctrine that tongues and prophecy have ceased stems. Because it says "that which is perfect is come" they say "that which is perfect" is the canon of scripture… 1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For clarity- I do not believe that "speaking in tongues is the indicator for a person's salvation." (The fruits, i.e. Gal. 5:22-23 are) There are several purposes of tongues, only ONE of which is a "sign" of receiving the Holy Ghost (being born-again, same thing)… Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God… Question- Is it clear from 1 Cor. 13:8,9 that "Sign and Revelatory" gifts were only given to the Apostles and they would cease upon completion of the canon of scripture? Let's look at that verse again… 1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now i know in part; but then shall i know even as also i am known. We can't take part of this passage ("tongues, they shall cease") and leave the rest. If tongues have ceased, then so has knowledge, and so has prophesy. Not some prophesy, ALL prophesy! Not some knowledge- ALL knowledge! There are yet many things unfulfilled on the prophetic horizon. Have these things failed? Are the works of a Prophet (the calling, here, rather than the events) no longer needed? 1 Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort… 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. The church still needs the prophesies to come true, otherwise our whole salvation is for nought! Those of the "canon is that which is perfect" doctrine simply ignore this scripturally stated purpose of prophecy. The church still needs to be spoken to in edification, exhortation, and comfort. To put it bluntly, the church is a long way from being perfected. Therefore, the church still needs, and still has, prophets… 1 Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away…. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Did the bringing in of the New Testament canon bring us to the point where we can say we are "face-to-face"? Do you know in part, or do you know even as you are known? How does the canon of scripture fulfill ALL of these points? Where does scripture say or even imply that the canon of scripture is the fulfilling of these things? The scripture doesn't. Only the private interpretations of men do. "When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" I do agree that this isn't exactly talking about Jesus' second coming. First off, because He already came, and He was already perfect the first time He came! However, let's look at the clues that this passage DOES give us. Let's start with the very first one… 1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail Prophesies shall fail. These things aren't done away, until there are no more prophesies to fulfil! What is the last prophesy to be fulfilled? Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband… 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,… Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations… 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:.. 4 and they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads… Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. That is when all these things- prophecy, tongues, and knowledge are to fail. And as it specifically says, that is when we shall see Him face to face, as is prophesied. For we are as the sons of Abraham, walking in the steps of our father Abraham… Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Question- Doesn't the fact that the Greek word used for "cease" denotes a process, rather than an event, and the fact that the Greek word for "perfect" is not masculine in gender, but rather neuter, prove that which is perfect is not the coming of Jesus, and that the ceasing of tongues would not be an "event" but a process- like the formulating of scriptures? These facts actually bear out perfectly with what I'm telling you. 1 Cor 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;… 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. The canon of scripture does not fit the fulfilment of 1 Cor. 13 because knowledge and prophesies did NOT fail at that point. The coming of Jesus was not the fulfilment due to the wording of 1 Cor. But, "when that which is perfect is come," is that city whose builder and maker is God! The bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem! Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 1 Cor 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. This does bear out the scripture which says- 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And we know that HE is perfect, and therefore, we, His church, shall then be perfected! This bears out perfectly with the fact, that it is not the Greek word for perfect is not a tense for an event, but a process of time. Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Therefore, the argument against present day speaking in tongues is not founded on a proper reading of 1 Corinthians, when it is read in context. Jesus said- John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: Acts 10:45 …on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear… Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 for the promise (this, which ye now see and hear) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Question- Have the scriptures brought us to a full revelation of God? No scripture says this. It is a private interpretation. It is drawing conclusions from scripture, that isn't stated in scripture, but is contradicted in other scriptures- in fact it is contradicted in the very passage you use as it's evidence! 1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away…. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but ***then face to face*** The canon of scripture brings no one "face to face" with Christ and God! That is for a prophesy well in the future of the canon of scripture! The scriptures still allow us only to see through a glass darkly. In fact, it isn't the scriptures that were to lead us into all truth, but… John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Also, by saying that we no longer need the gift of prophesy, one would be saying that we no longer need those who speak unto men to edification, exhortation, and comfort! 1 Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. Besides, 1 Corinthians doesn't say only the "gift" of prophesy would fail, but the prophesies themselves… 1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; If one is saying there are no more prophets, then one is implying that the church has come to the fulness of perfection… Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 **Till** we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; If you are going to do away with prophets, you are going to have to do away with pastors, and teachers and evangelists also- for they come from the same list as do Apostles and prophets. And then what you have is NOT a new testament church. A church described without "Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers" is an obviously different set of ministerial offices than the original church, and does not at all fit the original model, nor it's description of it's officers, therefore, a church described without Apostles and prophets is obviously, not the same church as Paul, in God's word, des |