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Final Rejoinder COUNTERING-
Hello again, Betelgeuse. Thanks for your patience. I'm still enjoying this, I hope you are too. Again I must apologize for the length of this post. I just don't know how to condense these things and get everything that needs to get out, out. I know the following appeared in 'Rebuttal #2' but I need to cover this before we get any further-
First off, if we are going to talk scripture, we are going to talk scripture, not some perversions like the NIV, RSV, NASB, TLB, TAB, etc. Please go to this location for some evidence that the NIV is a perversion, and the Authorized (King James) Version is the ONLY true English translation of THE Bible: http://www.aloha.net/~bstaggs/kjb.html The bottom line with virtually all contemporary versions is the text, especially the Greek, from which they have been translated. That text is based on 2 Greek copies (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus) which are each severely corrupted and do not agree among each other. Those 2 texts were in turn re-written to create a new "eclectic" text- a text combining the two, by virtual guesswork, that never before existed. That eclectic text, or one nearly identical to it, is the text used by Westcott & Hort, and the United Bible Society, etc. in creating their modern versions. The King James Version is based on a text represented in thousands of copies from a very wide geographical area that agree with each other except in minor typographical and other obvious human flaws. The historicity of the Textus Receptus (which utilized by the King James) is verified through patristic writings etc. predating Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. In fact it has been said that virtually the whole New Testament could be restored from those writings circulated before 200-300 A.D. This is a point I don't intend to continue reiterating. The Web site I have noted gives more than sufficient evidence, and I don't feel I need to add further. If this is a point of contention with you, I will have to back out of our conversations because we will be speaking two different languages. I am VERY ADAMANT about this point. This is because those versions are simply more evidence of scribes falsifying the word, and I REFUSE TO GIVE THEM ANY CREDIT AS TO VIABILITY. I don't expect you to be convinced of that which I consider to be fact. If you don't agree with me, at least humor me for the sake of this thread, and use the KJV- OK? Here is a Web site where you can look up your verses in the King James Version- http://tuna.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/KJV.form.html Thank you.
I went back and searched through my posting to you on Achan (and I did a word find on "collective" and "individual") and I cannot find where I said this. Could you please point it out.
This is not a case of the entire city being put to death for the sins OF one man. If the whole city followed after a man who was teaching them to go after other gods, the sin was in following the man. That was a sin unto itself which they each committed individually- "Take heed TO THYSELF... For thou (singular) shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" -Exodus 34:12-15. "If there arise among you a prophet... saying, Let us go after other gods... Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet... for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul" -Deuteronomy 13:1-3. "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch" -Matthew 15:14. "If thou shalt hear say... Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone OUT FROM AMONG YOU... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, IF IT BE TRUTH... abomination is wrought among you" -Deuteronomy 13:12-14. If they didn't actually "follow" the man's teaching, and only "allowed" him to teach people to follow after other gods, that was another sin committed individually- "And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart. And what cause soever shall come to you of your brethren that dwell in your cities, between blood and blood, between law and commandment, statutes and judgments, YE SHALL EVEN WARN THEM that they trespass not against the LORD... THIS DO, and ye shall not trespass" -2 Chronicles 19:9-10. Jesus had the same thing to say to the churches that allowed false teachers in their midst- To the church at Ephesus write... "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" -Revelations 2:2. To the church at Pergamos write... "I have a few things against thee, BECAUSE THOU HAST THERE them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate" -Revelation 2:14. To the church at Thyatira write... "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols" -Revelation 2:20. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" -1 John 4:1. (This is why I am accused of being so harsh on false teachers here on CyberSight. If a servant of God allows that they may be capable of success, or effectiveness (viable), then that person becomes a partaker with them of their evil. Granted, this is a very difficult concept to understand, let alone accept- that's why Jesus had so much trouble with it in so many of HIS churches. Lord willing, I will try my best to explain it in a response coming to mind for Severity. Contrary to his well-meaning post, I was not writing with the attitude he has claimed). 2. You also claimed that Achan's family collaborated WITH Achan in hiding the stolen loot in the floor of his tent. Unfortunately, I did use the word "collaborate". I knew the word didn't seem exactly right at the time, but rather than spend the time to search for the right word I used "collaborate". At the time I thought it would be close enough to get the point across. Apparently not, and I was wrong. Please forgive me and allow me to make a correction. The word (or phrase, actually) I should have used was- "accessory after the fact"- "Accessory... 2. Law. a. One who incites, aids, or abets a lawbreaker in the commission of a crime but is not present at the time of the crime. Also called accessory before the fact. b. ONE WHO AIDS A CRIMINAL AFTER THE COMMISSION OF A CRIME, BUT WAS NOT PRESENT AT THE TIME OF THE CRIME. Also CALLED ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT." American Heritage Dictionary. "Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, AND DISSEMBLED ALSO, and they have put it even among THEIR own stuff" -Joshua 7:11. The family of Achan was guilty of "dissembling also" which means this- "dissemble...1. To disguise or conceal behind a false appearance" -American Heritage Dictionary.
I personally haven't met a baptist yet that really "knew" his Bible. I'm afraid I don't recognize these people as final authorities over the scripture, so this rebuttal holds no authority with me. (Are these the same one's who spread those falsehoods about all women needing to be in silence in the church?)
Here's a fine case of the NIV distorting the scriptures. This passage says, in the KJV- "And it shall be, that he that is taken with THE ACCURSED THING shall be burnt with fire, he AND ALL THAT HE HATH: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel" -Joshua 7:15. Surely I don't need to point out the differences in the definitions of "accursed" and "devoted". as the head of his household, Achan's immediate family BELONGED to HIM. Same thing here. "All that he hath" is NOT the same as his "immediate family belonged to him". Again, the commandment to warn evil doers in the law goes to his wife and children also. They were individually responsible and individually committed the sin of dissembling, dealing falsely with the Lord, as if there were no evil present among them. As you have said, I do know the Bible fairly well. And I've studied into the relationship of husbands and wives a bit. But I still can't find where the Bible specifically says that a woman "belongs" to her husband as if he had authority over her more so than the commandments of God. I thought we covered fairly thoroughly the subject of women needing to comply with the Word of God above preferring her husband. Did I not express the concept well enough? It applies here also.
This I will agree to. Not that they were "property", specifically, but that his animals were part of "all that he hath". Not only that Achan "hath", but that his wife and children "hath" also. :-) Contrary to what is politically correct, animals are not the same as people. The difference isn't that people have opposing thumbs, or that people use tools, or their ability to reason. The difference is that people have everlasting souls, and animals don't: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL" -Genesis 2:7. That is why the new age movement with it's "animal right's" movement is so contrary to God. Don't get me wrong, people should, and must be good stewards over the animal kingdom, but animals should not receive special rights. Respect, yes. Rights, no. An animal is, after all, just a thing. Animated, though, no doubt. "And God said, Let us make man... and let them have DOMINION OVER... every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" -Genesis 1:26. To those out there who think animals are all good, do you really mean ALL animals? New Age "animal rights" activists say things that seem to mean that animals are actually "better" than people. Some say animals should not be killed for any reason, right? Well then, let's take for example the AIDS virus. It is a living being, and therefore an animal! What's the difference between an AIDS bug, and a cow, or a whale, except for size? Oh but AIDS kill people! Well, the AIDS virus may be a precious thing to, for example a whale for just that reason! After all the virus is trying to kill off their only enemy- the human population, right? But you don't see many animal rights activists standing up to protect the AIDS virus from total annihilation as intended by mankind, do you? Save the whales- save the Aids virus!!! Lions and tigers and bears kill people to, I guess they should be on the level with the AIDS virus, shouldn't they? Is not then this whole "animal rights" thing hypocritical, or am I missing something here? You see, only humans have a soul- that is the difference between man and animal, according to the scripture. The Bible told us that thousands of years ago, and man hasn't been able to contradict that fact yet. (We will get back to the subject of the children a little later).
Again, the NIV has perverted these passages. Let's look at some of them in the KJV- "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: EVERY MAN SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH FOR HIS OWN SIN" -Deuteronomy 24:16. Granted- not to much difference here, nor the verses from Kings and Chron's. (I'll get to Isaiah in a moment). But, in Exodus 20:5: "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS UPON THE CHILDREN unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" -Exodus 20:5 and 34:7, Deut. 5:9. (Numbers 14:8 must have been a typo. It doesn't fit your argument). Where, in the above passage do you see the word **PUNISH**??? This is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT, for the scripture says- "EVERY WORD of God is pure... ADD THOU NOT UNTO HIS WORDS, lest he reprove thee, and THOU BE FOUND A LIAR" -Proverbs 30:6. You see, the passages above don't expressly speak of punishment, therefore, something else is indicated. Have you ever heard the saying- 'like father, like son'? Are there any psychologists out there who would disagree that it is A FACT OF LIFE that children pick up bad habits from their parents!?! Very often I see my shortcomings GLARINGLY reflected back at me in the actions of my children, and I shudder! But thank God they pick up good habits, also. So, once again, God's word, thousands of years ago, stated a fact of life not necessarily acknowledged by man until recent history! Now let's look at Ezekiel 18:19-20, and see how PERFECTLY God says this very thing- "But if a man be just, AND DO THAT WHICH IS LAWFUL AND RIGHT... Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. "If he beget A SON THAT IS A ROBBER, A SHEDDER OF BLOOD, and that doeth the like to any one of these things... (sin, sin, sin, etc.)... SHALL HE THEN LIVE? HE SHALL NOT LIVE: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. "Now, lo, if he beget a son, that SEETH ALL HIS FATHER'S SINS which he hath done, and considereth, AND DOETH NOT SUCH like... he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. "As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. "YET SAY YE (Betelgeuse), WHY? DOTH NOT THE SON BEAR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER?" God answers- "When the son hath DONE that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath DONE them, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE. THE ***SOUL*** THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. "But IF THE WICKED WILL TURN FROM ALL HIS SINS that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE, HE SHALL NOT DIE" -Ezekiel 18:5-21. (Please NOTE THAT WORD- **SOUL**, I will be referring back to it). Now let's look at Isaiah 14:21- "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities" -Isaiah 14:21. Doesn't this verse lead us so perfectly to 1 Samuel 15:2-3? "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not..."-1 Samuel 15:2-3. Since God specifically said they would not be punished for the sins of their fathers, there must be some other answer. And, scripturally, there most certainly is- Up until the time of David, the Amalekites continued to COMMIT THE INIQUITY OF THEIR FATHERS, for it is written- "Lo, THINE ENEMIES make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and CONSULTED AGAINST THY HIDDEN ONES. They have said, Come, and LET US CUT THEM OFF from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, AND AMALEK; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre" -Psalms 83:1-7. "Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that YE ALLOW THE DEEDS of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres" -Luke 11:47-48. "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and YE DO THAT WHICH YE HAVE SEEN WITH YOUR FATHER. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, IF YE WERE ABRAHAM'S CHILDREN, YE WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM... Ye do the deeds of your father... Ye are of your father the devil, AND THE LUSTS OF YOUR FATHER YE WILL DO" -John 8:38-44. "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: AS YOUR FATHERS DID, SO DO YE" -Acts 7:51. You see, they were still committing the SAME INIQUITIES as their fathers. They weren't being PUNISHED for the sins their fathers had committed in the past, they were being destroyed for ALLOWING THE DEEDS OF THEIR FATHERS because they WERE STILL COMMITTING ***THE SAME INIQUITIES OF*** THEIR FATHERS!!! "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man" -Genesis 6:3. "O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I (allow) you?" -Mark 9:19. "I gave her SPACE to repent of her fornication; and she repented not" -Revelation 2:21. (Note: the word "space used here means- "Definition: A SPACE OF TIME (in gen.) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay" -Strong's Concordance. Surely, after attempting to annihilate GOD'S chosen people, proven before them with many signs and wonders, for 450 years, then God HAS given them plenty of time to "Seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, AND DOETH NOT such like"!!!
About women let me reiterate- just because "men" may have considered women to have been "their possessions" does not mean God does. Remember Rahab and the mercy shown her- AND HER FAMILY FOR HER RIGHTEOUSNESS!! Why should we assume that her story was NOT as well circulated as any others back then??? My pastor, and shepherd is a woman. She was raised in a church that suppressed women from the ministry. But she sought ALWAYS to do God's will, and HE gave her the calling of prophetess. She had to reject man's traditions, from her own church, and obey God instead. She, among others throughout the ages, will stand in that day in judgment against women who have used the excuse of their husband's falsely imposed will over them. But we covered all this stuff.
OK, let's talk punishment. What is it? "The Lord Jesus shall... In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and from the glory of his power" -2 Thessalonians 1:7-9. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL" -Matthew 10:28 You see, this is why Ezekiel 18:20 says- "THE ***SOUL*** THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE". And that is what "death" and "punishment" are- everlasting destruction (total removal) from the presence of the Lord. (Some people don't seem to understand that the only reason we ARE alive at all is "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" -Acts 17:28). So now, what makes anyone think KILLING the infants was PUNISHMENT??? Objectivity? Subjectivity? Xenophobia? Or scripture??? "For to me to live is Christ, and TO DIE IS GAIN... For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire TO DEPART, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST... IS FAR BETTER" -Philippians 1:21-23. "Whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord" -2 Corinthians 5:6. Before you say- but these children were the children of sinners, because the scripture says- "The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy" -1 Corinthians 7:14. Again, it doesn't specifically say here that the children will be PUNISHED for the sins of the parents, it's just that the children at least have one righteous parent who can "Train up a child in the way he should go: (that) when he is old, he will not depart from it" -Proverbs 22:6. You see- if the child didn't have a righteous parent to follow, what is left but that the like father-like son curse of having the iniquity of the parents visited on the children. We KNOW that this verse DOESN'T mean the children will be AUTOMATICALLY destroyed, or punished, because the scriptures tell us so- "But Jesus said, (permit) little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for OF SUCH IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" -Matthew 19:14. "For I WAS ALIVE WITHOUT THE LAW ONCE: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" -Romans 7:9. "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For WITHOUT THE LAW SIN WAS DEAD. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" -Romans 7:7-9. "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" -Romans 2:14. "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" -James 4:17. Children therefore, before they are able to understand good from evil, have committed no sins, and are therefore "of the kingdom of heaven". they don't need to be born-again, because they were never dead! Therefore, as it was for the apostle Paul, who also was of God's kingdom, so it was for the children- "TO DIE IS GAIN... For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire TO DEPART, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST... IS FAR BETTER" -Philippians 1:21-23. The Amalakite children, therefore, were actually, not punished, but spared the sufferings of this world- "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" -Romans 8:18. They did not have to suffer the iniquities of their fathers. But what about us WHO HAVE sinned? "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" -Romans 3:23. Is there no hope for us? "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; THAT YE MAY BE THE CHILDREN OF YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" -Matthew 5:44-45. "But I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? -Romans 7:14-24 And this is why we must be born again, because "As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, NOT of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God" -John 1:12-13. "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but IF YE THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YE SHALL LIVE. FOR AS MANY AS ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" -Romans 8:13-17. "This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YE SHALL NOT FULFIL THE LUST OF THE FLESH. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But IF YE BE LED OF THE SPIRIT, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW" -Galatians 5:16-18. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" -John 3:6-8. May God bless you, Tom Raddatz |