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Bible Preservation Ignatius Councils

Hello friend, and thanks for your questions.

From my research, I've found it not to be true that the "church councils" of themselves decided what writings to make scripture-

Ignatius, (d. 115 A.D.), wrote- "Unless I find it written in the originals, I will not believe it to be written in the Gospel. And when I said, 'It is written,' they answered what lay before them in their corrupted copies" as quoted from The Story of Christian Origins, by Martin A. Larson, New Republic Book, page 501, reprinted here from Ancient Champions of Oneness by William B. Chalfant.

The point being, that Ignatius KNEW in the beginning of the second century, not only what were truly scriptures, but also which were false.

In Evidence That Demands a Verdict, (Here's Life Publishers) Josh McDowell pages 63-64, writes and quotes: "Eusebius, in his Ecclesiastical History III.39, preserves the writings of Papias, the bishop of Heirapolis (130 A.D.) which Papias got from the Elder (apostle John):'The Elder used to say this also: 'Mark, having been the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately all that he (Peter) mentioned, whether sayings or doings of Christ, not, however, in order. For he was neither a hearer nor a companion of the Lord; but afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who adapted his teachings as necessity required, not as though he were making a compilation of the sayings of the Lord. So then Mark made no mistake, writing down in this way some things as he (Peter) mentioned them; for he paid attention to this one thing, not to omit anything that he heard, not to include any false statement among them.'... "Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (A.D. 180), who was a student of Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna; martyred in 156 A.D., had been a Christian for 86 years, and was a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote: 'So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these, each one of them endeavors to establish his own particular doctrine...' 'Matthew published his gospel among the Hebrews in their own tongue, when (Paul was) preaching the gospel in Rome and founding the church there. After their departure (i.e. death) Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, himself handed down to us in writing the substance of Peter's preaching. Luke, the follower of Paul, set down in a book the gospel preached by his teacher. Then John, the disciple of the Lord, who also leaned on His breast (this is the reference to John 13:25 and 21:20), himself produced his Gospel, while he was living at Ephesus in Asia.' (Against Heresies III)"

"Augustine of Hippo... The immortal story of his conversion in the eighth book of Confessions tells of... when, at the sound of a child's voice calling... he opened the New Testament Letters and read in Letter of Paul to The Romans the words, '...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires' (Rom. 13:14). This was in the summer of the year 386." -Encyclopedia Brittanica, vol. 2, page 365.

I wonder how a man not yet a convert to Christianity had in his possession a copy of the Bible years before the councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.), if it was these that first put the Bible together?

"The decisions of church councils in the fourth and fifth centuries did not determine the canon, nor did they even first discover or recognize it. In no sense was the authority of the canonical books contingent upon the later church councils. All those councils did was to give later, broader, and final recognition to what was already a fact, namely, that God had inspired them and that the people of God had accepted them in the first century." (Geisler and Nix, rev. ed., 231).

"The Church no more gave us the New Testament canon than Sir Isaac Newton gave us the force of gravity... Newton did not create gravity, but recognized it... All the churches were trying to do was to see which of the books claiming to be in some sufficient sense apostolic really were so- a question principally of historical fact." (J.I. Packer, God has spoken, Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979."

"...By about 150 we find numerous New Testament quotations representing every book except one to four short personal letters. BY ABOUT 200 WE HAVE CLEAR POSTBIBLICAL WITNESSES TO EVERY BOOK OF THE NEW TESTAMENT... It is important to note that they (regional councils at Hippo-393 and Carthage- 397 & 419) simply ratified what grass-roots believers as a whole had practiced for centuries... Thus we do not depend on the authority of fourth century leaders when we accept the New Testament canon, nor need we endorse all doctrines they taught. Neither should we regard the authority of the post-apostolic church as prior, superior, or equal to that of Scripture" (God's Infallible Word, by David Bernard, pages 90-91.

<<Why does the author of the canonized book of Jude in 1:14 quote from the uncannonized book of Enoch? Should Enoch be considered the Word of God such that the Word of God would quote it, or did the MEN who put the Bible together include Jude by mistake?>>

In a post to Jack recently, I quoted something a man had written to make a point. Does that necessarily mean that I condone everything that man wrote? Of course not. So why is it that the Bible cannot quote others, without being assumed to "canonize" everything that was said by them?

Let me ask you, where did you get your information that the Councils were the only source of the Bible?

Might I be so bold in suggesting that they who would justify murdering people for no other crime than having a Bible in their possession, could very well also justify lying to you about the source and reliability of the Bible? For remember, they themselves claim to be unchanged after all these years!

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This part is for those who wish to know the scriptures on the subject.

The real question is, were the words the apostles wrote different from the words of the Lord, which they preached? And why did the apostles feel the need to write, and not just leave doctrine to be passed down by traditions?

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." 1 Corinthians 14:37.

"This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour." -2 Peter 3:1-2.

"Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified." -Acts 20:31-32.

"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." -Acts 2:42.

"As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine" -1 Timothy 1:3.

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." -1 Timothy 4:16.

"...These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, He is proud, knowing nothing,." -1 Timothy 6:2-4.

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." -Jude 1:3-4.

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full." -1 John 1:3-4.

According to the words of the apostles, were scriptures not available to the early church?-

"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people." -Acts 17:10-13.

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." -Romans 15:14.

Did the Christians after the apostles write as if the New Testament scriptures were unavailable to them, or did they write as if the New Testament was readily available, and ought to be obeyed?

"And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed." -2 Thessalonians 3:14.

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." -Revelation 22:18-19.

"...Our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." 2 Peter 3:15-16.

"For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." -1 Timothy 5:18 (Paul is quoting Old Testament- Deut. 25:4, and New Testament- Luke 10:7, and calling both equally scripture.)

May God Bless!